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PeterC

Covid 19, novel corona virus. Split from off-grid thread

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I thought that would be the case Rod, regarding antibodies, but wasn't sure if the virus had to be active at the time of the test to show up. 

Hope you and your family are all staying well. 

Darren

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Yes, there will be antibodies left and they are detectable - with the right tests. 

The tests are under development, even early production - I think the times scales involved are not too horrific.  Bring them on.  What a great thing - to be able to test doctors and nurses and see who already has anti-bodies and thus (maybe) less risk...…..

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23 minutes ago, Rod1883 said:

There should be antibodies produced in the blood that fight the viral infection and these can be detected afterwards I believe.

I'm no expert, I'm sure someone who knows far more than me can expand/correct......

Sounds right to me. I think that is how things are often checked? PSA for one (though antigen, not antibodies, but same idea)

Nick, I wasn't clear. I meant that the Icelandic population is a bit "different" and it could be all sorts of stuff making them more resistant. But in general a healthy population through diet/lifestyle whatever is going to be stronger. No shit Sherlock..... and I wonder if they have some genetic stuff going on. But yes, a strong healthy population is likely to have lower numbers of symptoms. But 50% is astounding.

Yes, testing sick people would be a great idea. But I heard something earlier today about restricted numbers of testing kits, and I guess the NHS stopped as every man and dog was turning up to get tested, probably some daily. So kits have been prioritised. But we need to test far more so we can release more frontline staff back to work, your colleagues wife the perfect example. But if we don't have the kits, and we can't get them, again nothing that can be done. Yet.

On a personal not, local care homes were on the news as CV going through some. And my parents probably need 24 hr care now (things moving rapidly on that front). Sister going spare, still no long term carers available, though there may be care-home spaces available, but are we feeling lucky? But even with teh GP-provided carers in place for now, they see 3 different carers most days. Don't tell me they are definitely not infected or just seen somebody etc etc. Maybe the care issue will resolve itself. Not necessarily in the way we want. Who can tell.

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Not in development, Nick, developed.  Those vaunted by Trump turned out to be defective, and today we are told the the Gov has ordered millions of test kits. ABOUT BLOODY TIME TOO!   The slackness and lack of urgency shown by Johnson and his yesmen until the last two days is a disgrace, but sad to say, only what one might expect from a Johnson administration.    He also boasted of all the PPE that was being delivered, with military assistance and presumably from strategic stores that the military had secured.  ABOUT BLOODY TIME TOO!

But I was more than disgusted today by a message from Daughter - the NHS consultant (currently self-isolating because grandson No.3 had symptoms. She and Son-in-Law (also a consultant) must stay isolated for 14 days at least, unless they fall ill, as THERE ARE NO BLOODY TEST KITS TO DETEMINE IF THEY OR Gs NO.3 HAVE CORONA VIRUS.    But that's another story and another failing of the Johnson farce.    No, she asked me if I had a mask, the sort of thing I might use to spray paint.     Because she is afraid that, as seems likely Gs no.3 'just' had a cold and she will be vulnerable when she goes back to work, for herself and her children.    AND THERE ARE NO BLOODY MASKS IN HER HOSPITAL.

John

 

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7 minutes ago, JohnD said:

But I was more than disgusted today by a message from Daughter - the NHS consultant (currently self-isolating because grandson No.3 had symptoms. She and Son-in-Law (also a consultant) must stay isolated for 14 days at least, unless they fall ill, as THERE ARE NO BLOODY TEST KITS TO DETEMINE IF THEY OR Gs NO.3 HAVE CORONA VIRUS.

John

 

John

Quite so.

And it is more than a little galling that test kits are invariably available to test politicos and asymptomatic celebs.  Idris Elba - asymptomatic - was tested immediately, because he was in the same room as Mrs Trudeau...  Ditto one or other of the dreadful Kardashian tribe.

Paul

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1 hour ago, TR5tar said:

Hope you and your family are all staying well. 

Darren

We are all fine thank you Darren - as I hope you and yours are

Rod

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52 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Not in development, Nick, developed.  Those vaunted by Trump turned out to be defective, and today we are told the the Gov has ordered millions of test kits. ABOUT BLOODY TIME TOO!   The slackness and lack of urgency shown by Johnson and his yesmen until the last two days is a disgrace, but sad to say, only what one might expect from a Johnson administration.    He also boasted of all the PPE that was being delivered, with military assistance and presumably from strategic stores that the military had secured.  ABOUT BLOODY TIME TOO!

But I was more than disgusted today by a message from Daughter - the NHS consultant (currently self-isolating because grandson No.3 had symptoms. She and Son-in-Law (also a consultant) must stay isolated for 14 days at least, unless they fall ill, as THERE ARE NO BLOODY TEST KITS TO DETEMINE IF THEY OR Gs NO.3 HAVE CORONA VIRUS.    But that's another story and another failing of the Johnson farce.    No, she asked me if I had a mask, the sort of thing I might use to spray paint.     Because she is afraid that, as seems likely Gs no.3 'just' had a cold and she will be vulnerable when she goes back to work, for herself and her children.    AND THERE ARE NO BLOODY MASKS IN HER HOSPITAL.

John

 

The kits ordered are serological tests for post-COVID confirmatory testing.   AFAIK ther are no kits anywhere on the planet that can detect thte virus. To do that requires a laboratory kitted out to do RT-PCR. PCR is labour intensive and far from being a kit.

Peter

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PeterC said:

The kits ordered are serological tests for post-COVID confirmatory testing.   AFAIK ther are no kits anywhere on the planet that can detect thte virus. To do that requires a laboratory kitted out to do RT-PCR. PCR is labour intensive and far from being a kit.

Peter

Exactly, Peter!   The NHS is threatened as never before, by staff losses to the disease as well as pure patinet numbers, AND JOHNSON SITS ON HIS THUMBS, IN BARBADOS OR CHEQUERS AND DOESN'T ODER THE BLOODY ANTIBODY TEST KITS UNTIL NOW!    

YES, I AM BLOODY SHOUTING!

Edited by JohnD

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Rod1883 said:

We are all fine thank you Darren - as I hope you and yours are

Rod

Glad to hear that Rod. All fine here, thanks. 

Edited by TR5tar

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Its very interesting reading what is happening overseas and comparing it to what is occuring here in New Zealand.

As of midnight tonight the whole country is in Lockdown with an exemption till friday for people to get home.

After that ferries and palnes are only for essential services and freight to keep supplies flowing 

It has also declared a State of Emergency to give them powers to act against idiots

Only businesses that are open to the public are supermarkets, pharmacies, vets, fuel stations, dairies(corner stores) or anything vital to maintain life

No home hardware type stores, no cafes or restaurants.

Parks and reserves have been closed including childrens.

Education facilities have shut down.

Most people still working are working from home while those who cannot work from home should still be getting paid  as the govt has put up a scheme to pay people. As I am self employed I applied and recieved a lump of $585.50 for 12 weeks, after this over I have to prove I have had a drop in income of at least %30 between January and June. The same scheme has been offered to employers to assist with paying their staff.

As an electrician I can do emergency work and get equipment from the wholesalers but I have to phone them first. 

We are allowed to go for a walk or cycle ride at least once a day in and around our local area keeping 2 metres from others but they do not want people travelling.  

If we go to the shops we must try keep 2 metre distance from others.

Police and possible Military will be patrolling the streets 

 

 

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14 hours ago, JohnD said:

Exactly, Peter!   The NHS is threatened as never before, by staff losses to the disease as well as pure patinet numbers, AND JOHNSON SITS ON HIS THUMBS, IN BARBADOS OR CHEQUERS AND DOESN'T ODER THE BLOODY ANTIBODY TEST KITS UNTIL NOW!    

YES, I AM BLOODY SHOUTING!

HEAR HEAR!!!!!

We have no tests or PPE for doctors/nurses, yet apparently we can test Prince Charles??

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Sent Daughter a picture of self in spray mask, saying, don't you think it makes you look like a Plague Doctor?

She replied, I won't be the only one wearing one!

IMG_20200325_122937.jpg

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I think that's a tad unfair Nick - he is second in line to the throne, and I would have thought it vital to know what is happening in those that are near to the Queen and other members of the Royal Family.

I am no expert on testing, but I've just heard it said we have tested 97000 people - yes I agree more priority needs to be put on those in the front line and more testing equipment/kits obtained, including the 'have you had it' test in addition to the 'have you got it now' version. If I am going to be controversial for a moment - it seems crazy to me that illegal migrants are tested as  understand they are upon being rescued by the Border service.

I have some sympathy with those in power - this thing is moving so quickly and all Governments are being caught out in some of their actions and preparedness. It seems that only South Korea are being lauded as getting it close to absolutely right - and that may be due to the proximity to the source. Yes it is probable that there was a short 'phoney war' against this virus and many if not all Western Governments were at best slow off the mark, and at worst somewhat complacent in the face of the challenge - until it came closer to home.

There are many things that could be done and it's easy to be critical, butthe Government have my support in all the efforts they are making to try to do the right thing.

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Why is the lack of test kits, masks etc so surprising? If we had enough then in a "normal" year we would be throwing thousands of masks away as they would be out of date, and we can't stockpile test kits to test for something we don't know is coming.

Yes politicians like to say the have ordered supplies, but anyone can do that why do the reporters not press for the actual delivery date for the supplies - that is what really counts. 

Similar problems existed a few years ago with the press full of stories of lack of body armour for the troops, then the snatch Land Rover that could not stand a roadside bomb. It is only possible to equip and stockpile for routine items then we should have the funding to move quickly when a new threat appears. A major issue at this time is the lack of UK manufacturing in strategic items - such as face masks and ventilators. Extended supply chains across continents, and with components sourced from multiple countries prevents any suitable response to a crisis.

Along with manufacturing we now seem to be in the throws of closing down UK steel production (I have no connection). Once the Coronavirus is over I believe that we need to identify certain core manufacturing industries that will be supported in the UK; something that was not possible whilst in the EU.

Alan

 

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Rod, you make sense!

A large part of managing this crisis is perception. Or propaganda, depends where you stand. But high profile people will get tested, that is the way the world works. 

Likewise, people are muttering about delays in ordering supplies. But do we know that is the case? I get the feeling people making these kits and other equipment may be a bit mercenary. And some countries may enjoy easier access. We simply don't know what is going on behind the scenes. And as for the implication the govt is somehow holding supplies back is a nuts. There may be some boffin (or team of boffins) doing the logistics, but I would place a hefty wager they are doing the best they can. 

No, I just believe that everybody is doing their best. But the new model from Oxford shows that, unsurprisingly, data can be interpreted differently. And just because the UK is taking a different approach to other countries doesn't mean they are right and we are wrong. That can only be looked at in a few years time, but even then I reckon the reports will suggest are just different. In fact, I believe the UK approach is (probably) better than that of China or Singapore. Those populations will be vulnerable until a vaccine is available.

And in all this, it seems the country is largely pulling together. 400K+ volunteers to help the NHS, people putting "can I help" messages through doors (we got one from a lovely couple who live down the road). We need to work together, help each other, and try to stay cheerful. And when it is all over, take the opportunity to go and enjoy our cars.

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36 minutes ago, Rod1883 said:

 

There are many things that could be done and it's easy to be critical, butthe Government have my support in all the efforts they are making to try to do the right thing.

Hear, hear. No matter what your political leaning you have to applaude the NHS staff for what they are achieving in very difficult times/circumstances as well as the politicians, civil servants and their advisors political and scientific. These people are having to make very difficult decisions on an issue which has only been seen on such a scale on a very few occasions in the last century. There is little if any precedent  in modern times for what we are currently facing and asking our leaders to lead on.

It is a very subjective matter and ask a range of experts on how to tackle the issue and you will get a number of different approaches, that is life as we all see things slightly differently given the same facts. They (the politicians/advisers) like those in the NHS are doing the best they can based on the knowledge and advice they are being given at that moment in time.

We should not judge them at this time, but look back when it all is over and learn the lessons from whatever mistakes if any that were made.

Until that time may we all stay safe and well.

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Don't buy it.  The Iranian, Italians and South Koreans had that excuse, even Spain.  Others, especially UK & USA, really not so much.  2 - 3 weeks ago it might have been fair, now it is not.  If things are taking a long time to deliver it's because others were smart enough to get in the queue first.  P

Accept that for virus specific tests it takes time to develop and produce - PPE and such -  nope.  They were far too slow off the mark.  Then there is the background of austerity and slow strangulation of the NHS which makes for a much steeper hill to climb. 

Don't go making excuses for them - they don't deserve it!

 

12 minutes ago, AB|W said:

we need to identify certain core manufacturing industries that will be supported in the UK; something that was not possible whilst in the EU.

Of course it was possible while we were in the EU.  All (ok most) the other EU countries do it.  We just let the asset strippers flog off to whomever wants it.

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6 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Don't buy it.  The Iranian, Italians and South Koreans had that excuse, even Spain.  Others, especially UK & USA, really not so much.  2 - 3 weeks ago it might have been fair, now it is not.  If things are taking a long time to deliver it's because others were smart enough to get in the queue first.  P

Accept that for virus specific tests it takes time to develop and produce - PPE and such -  nope.  They were far too slow off the mark.  Then there is the background of austerity and slow strangulation of the NHS which makes for a much steeper hill to climb. 

Don't go making excuses for them - they don't deserve it!

Of course it was possible while we were in the EU.  All (ok most) the other EU countries do it.  We just let the asset strippers flog off to whomever wants it.

I think it is difficult to be really critical. What queue should we have been in earlier? I'm sure all countries are scrabbling for equipment and so are, I'm sure, looking at their own manufacturing capability and wouldn't let another country be first in that queue.

It is clear that successive Governments have allowed our industries to be sold off to foreign buyers, or relocated to other countries. Whether this has been due to 'EU rules' preventing our Government stopping this, or whether this was just a convenient thing to blame - I don't know. It does seem though that Germany, France are able (and willing) to protect their industries far more than we have done for the last 30 odd years. It does often seem to the layman that they are able to flex (ignore?) EU far more than us to achieve this.

I would like to think that this pandemic crisis, when it is over might just make our leaders think long and hard about maintaining/rebuilding a good manufacturing and industrial base in this country, and of course helping our Farmers in the production of our food and in protecting the countryside whilst doing it.

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40 minutes ago, zetecspit said:

 

And in all this, it seems the country is largely pulling together. 400K+ volunteers to help the NHS, people putting "can I help" messages through doors (we got one from a lovely couple who live down the road). We need to work together, help each other, and try to stay cheerful. And when it is all over, take the opportunity to go and enjoy our cars.

Hear, hear. I love those final two sentences.

Thankfully not too much finger pointing going on in the press and on the TV. This country has always been slow coming out of the blocks, but as the govt. is having to take so much advice from scientists, the political spin is disappearing and we are starting to get stuck into this massive and awful problem. We really are a nation who is at is best when our backs are up against the wall. Ok, so Johnson is probably sensing he could come out of this smelling of roses, who bloody well cares, just crack on Boris! Please do not compare him to Trump, Donald is an awful and out of date man, Boris is not(well, maybe a little of out of date)!

One thing I really hope for when this is all over is that the medical professionals, especially the nurses get the plaudits and I hope salary increases to make the risk they always take worth it. I know for so many nurses, the job is about helping others, but they need to be rewarded...we cannot afford to lose them.

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Crack on Boris?!   No doubt by saying "de minimis non curat praetor", eh?

While he might better adhere to, "festinare nocet, nocet et cunctatio saepe; tempore quaeque suo qui facit, ille sapit."   But anyone can say that, can't they?

 

 

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In the disgraceful abscennce of CV19 testing kits and PPE  for NHS staff, maybe they should be bidding for this:

2ecd4541-baac-4003-a889-ab8200b424e1.jpg?w=540&h=360

See: https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/witham/catalogue-id-witham10110?utm_source=bs-bespoke-auc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=witham&utm_content=witham10110&utm_term=2020/03/25#lot-f67eddaf-3236-4699-bbc1-ab8200b447ab

You may like to note that the auction also includes Lot 10, 41 rolls of MoD bog roll!   All proceeds to charity!!

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1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Crack on Boris?!   No doubt by saying "de minimis non curat praetor", eh?

While he might better adhere to, "festinare nocet, nocet et cunctatio saepe; tempore quaeque suo qui facit, ille sapit."   But anyone can say that, can't they?

 

 

John, no idea what you are talking about. I am guessing Latin? Not sure if you are trying to be witty or pretentious.

But where is all this PPE kit? You seem to think it can just appear, and if not why not? From what I have seen there is a huge effort going on to ramp up production. As I said a while ago, there is no magic wand. 

It is a massive positive that all sorts of companies are getting involved. From the F1 teams etc through to vacuum cleaner manufacturers. That is typical British response to a crisis. We tend to take a bit of a "wait and see" approach, and then come up with some interesting solutions. We are an incredibly resourceful nation, always have been. And I hope we continue to be so. 

 

 

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Resourceful nation, yes. But blinkered to the actions of D3 in promoting our innate immune system, the first line of defence in combating the virus. As we have no second line as back up ( no antibodies) that oversight will be found in retrospect ot have cost many lives, globally.

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