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Covid 19, novel corona virus. Split from off-grid thread


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1 hour ago, PaulAA said:

...

Which begs the question whether simple rinsing of fresh fruit and veg is sufficient to eliminate casual contamination.

Paul

Not just fruit and veg, I was in a quandary after buying Tesco lunch today whether I should wash the plastic pasta tub before I opened it, or open it and decant it into a bowl then wash my hands. Then when I got home wondered if I should wash my keys at the same time as I washed my hands, as I'd just been handling them after doing the shopping... 

In the end I was fairly lax on all fronts.

On the economic angle, I was just reading a letter that came with my new council tax bill a week or two ago, which bemoans the continuing effects of austerity. Then I wondered if the after-shock from this coronavirus isolation might end up dwarfing the old credit crunch.

Heard on radio 4 news that Wuhan have recorded their first day with no new transmission, but that 14-day quarantine will continue being enforced at the border to prevent anyone re-importing infection. And locals are only just being allowed out of their houses, in strictly limited groups and a very limited distance. Will be very interesting to see if they can keep CV at bay long-term.

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Absolutely. But the asymptomatic, untested cases are how the bloody thing gets everywhere......

Well I’m still spamming because I think it’s important...... and this seems to bear it out Pity he takes half an hour when it needs 10 minutes tops but anyway..... Trial in a 

You'd think there was a conspiracy over that expression even 

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1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Ref your link above, those numbers are based on  ~10,000 infections in a population of 330 million  (0.03%) and in a very slim testing regime.  I still think the death rates are significantly inflated everywhere as data about total infections is woefully inadequate, because so little testing has been done among people who are not symptomatic.  Seems that the more comprehensive the testing is, the lower the rates.  I would agree with you that the South Korea data is the best available, but still far from the full picture.

So look at it a different way.  If you maintain some semblance of normal life, those with risk factors have, in many cases, the opportunity to take evasive action, take responsibility for their own fate, though clearly plenty of encouragement and support is needed.

If you take the nuclear option, everybody takes a hit. A hard and prolonged hit in very many cases, which will likely persist long after those who have been "saved" have died of other causes.  And we could get another following on in a year or two....... when all the world governments are flat broke.

But it seems that public opinion (pretty much everywhere) wants everyone saved, regardless of cost.  Will be interesting to see what they think after the apocalypse........

Pointless argument at this stage - die is pretty much cast.

Blimey, you tell a nation to self isolate and its population jumps by 280 million.

Its data for S Korea.

Peter

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6 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

Not just fruit and veg, I was in a quandary after buying Tesco lunch today whether I should wash the plastic pasta tub before I opened it, or open it and decant it into a bowl then wash my hands. Then when I got home wondered if I should wash my keys at the same time as I washed my hands, as I'd just been handling them after doing the shopping... 

In the end I was fairly lax on all fronts.

On the economic angle, I was just reading a letter that came with my new council tax bill a week or two ago, which bemoans the continuing effects of austerity. Then I wondered if the after-shock from this coronavirus isolation might end up dwarfing the old credit crunch.

Heard on radio 4 news that Wuhan have recorded their first day with no new transmission, but that 14-day quarantine will continue being enforced at the border to prevent anyone re-importing infection. And locals are only just being allowed out of their houses, in strictly limited groups and a very limited distance. Will be very interesting to see if they can keep CV at bay long-term.

Wuhan will I agree be very intresting. The measures were so effective at limitng spread that they did not reach anywhere near herd immunity of ca 70%    Which means to me the infection will run rampant again when Wuhanites mix again freely. No country can have an "exit plan" without either herd protection or a drug.vaccine.   My interpretation of the UK plan is thay are trying to hit herd immunity later this year without a  huge death  rate, that;s the exit strategy,

Peter

Peter

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Well what a week. That's 2 young members of my direct family out of a job as companies scale back.

Poor kids, I'm sure they'll be fine in the long term, but losing your first "proper job" is such a set-back.

Another member of the family leaves school for good today, no end of term celebrations, no exams, no results in August. Done, finished.

I appreciated when people are losing their lives it might seem trivial, but it's hard to watch the kids struggling.

:-(

 

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1 hour ago, PeterC said:

but no answer, other than isolation. No-one suggests in the article that the virus should be let run free by ending isolation.

But I get the impression that complete lockdown is not a great idea either. The existing strategy may be the least bad option? Let it spread but steadily rather than a massive peak. Makes sense to me.

Sam, yes the kids are having a hard time of it. Friends have 18yr old sons, both now finished and all in the air. Pretty certain it will pan out OK. And jobs for youngsters (and others) could take a while. There will be a lot of pain to share around with this. Nobody's fault, or possibly every-bodies fault. But not great either way. Hopefully something positive will turn up.

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Thnaks to the Post Office!    I received an email from them, maybe everyone has, that settles a concern that had been nagging at me.     What about stuff that comes through the letter box?  mail and newspapers.     Quote:

Public Health England has advised that there is no perceived increase in risk of contracting the new coronavirus for handling post or freight from specified areas. From experience with other coronaviruses, we know these types of viruses don’t survive long on objects, such as letters or parcels.

So I can sit at breakfast and read my letters and the news.    As long as postie doesn't wipe his nose on them.

 

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Have you had your call-up papers yet John?

Not a great idea for a number of reasons and I think uptake will be low.  Have also been rumblings about "calling up" student nurses.  Wonder if that includes actually paying them for their time?

7 hours ago, PeterC said:

but no answer, other than isolation. No-one suggests in the article that the virus should be let run free by ending isolation.

There is a glimmer of one in the Italian story I linked to after that though - targeted isolation.  Testing and isolating the positives...... practicality is clearly a major problem due to numbers though.

A quick, reliable anti-body test would be a game-changer on many levels.  If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.....

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The Mrs has been trying to join the Nurse Bank for the last year because she WAS behind a desk her registration is at risk, they refused saying she was not clinical anymore.

What arrived yesterday "Welcome to the Nurse Bank"...

Kinda pointless now, she's no longer behind a desk!

 

Biggest problem i see is that most of the retired workers they are writing to are in the "at risk" category, they don't exactly pay many Nurses enough to retire early!

Edited by mattius
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21 hours ago, PaulAA said:

As a slight aside, one of the troubling unknowns is how long the virus remains active on surfaces - minutes, hours... days? I've just come across a paper which suggests that it may be detectable for at least a couple of days on metal and cardboard surfaces, perhaps longer on plastic.

Which begs the question whether simple rinsing of fresh fruit and veg is sufficient to eliminate casual contamination.

Paul

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-03-coronavirus-days-plastic-complicated.html

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Yes, Nick, just today!

I've replied, pointing out that I retired from the NHS in 2014.   I went on in a VERY limited private practice, so that I could continue doing rally medic work, but finished in 2018, determined to jump before I was pushed.      I've said to the GMC that I would no longer feel confident, or safe,  in a clinical role, but would act in a non-clinical one if that helped.   I noticed that a local pharmacy wants help - maybe that would be more useful!   But dammit, I'm 73 in two weeks time - I'm in the firing line and at the wrong end of the rifle!

JOhn

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1 minute ago, JohnD said:

Yes, Nick, just today!

I've replied, pointing out that I retired from the NHS in 2014.   I went on in a VERY limited private practice, so that I could continue doing rally medic work, but finished in 2018, determined to jump before I was pushed.      I've said to the GMC that I would no longer feel confident, or safe,  in a clinical role, but would act in a non-clinical one if that helped.   I noticed that a local pharmacy wants help - maybe that would be more useful!   But dammit, I'm 73 in two weeks time - I'm in the firing line and at the wrong end of the rifle!

JOhn

John, Very sensible, the risk of becoming a casualty yourself rise steeply over 60. If its logical that the over-70s isolate then a virus-rich environment ( any hospital) is the last place you should be, Peter

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John -call up.

Are the retired being called up to work with Coronavirus patients which would seem to be a suicide mission?

Or are they offering that the retired work with the "other" non-covid-99 patients releasing NHS staff for Covid duties?

Alan

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The GMC email doesn't say what work might be offered.   It would be sensible to avoid the Old Crocks being put in harms way, but I'm beginning to think of this as War.     Our parents and grandparents didn't flinch.   Maybe I can get a billet at Walmington-on Sea?

 

Edited by JohnD
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John,

Just like the territorial army then, regulars dig in for the long term the terriers just cannon fodder.

One hell of a decision for any aging medic to sign on one what seems statistically to ensure they end up as a patient themselves with poor expectations resulting in more call on limited resources.

Alan

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Ref. the call up of retired medics. I have a suspicion and some faith that many will answer the call, despite the increased risk they might be at. These are the caring professions and I'm sure that many went in to them to help, rather than to just make money and enjoy the short working hours. I'd hope that none of the call ups would be placed in the front line. I'd continue to have the utmost respect for anyone who didn't feel able to sign up, but I hope that those that have something to offer, no matter how small, will come forward. Nobody should be in doubt now that this is a war. 

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"Short working hours" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll be kind, TR5tar, and believe you misspoke.   When I was lad in training, qualified and all, I worked a one in two rota, 24hrs on call, 8 hours on routine duty,  every other weekend from 1700 Friday to 0900 Monday, 64 hours non-stop.   They work shifts now, thank goodness, but that means even less full weekends off, and no one works their designated hours, always more.

John

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Quite right John,  An Anaesthetist aren't you? possibly the worst Job in the hospital in these times and judging by whats happened in Italy and China, the most dangerous.

Putting people in the "at risk category" in that situation will just end up with more people in hospital (i.e. the retired doctors, who will get overrun with the exposure to the virus) and make the situation worse. 

Most heartbreaking/warming story the Mrs told me was from an Anaesthetist as she was fitting for a mask asking if he would actually be able to get the mask he required (she couldn't answer him), his response was unbelievable to most of us outwith the NHS, "i will treat them either way with or without a mask, i just want people to be honest with me".

Edited by mattius
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