When leaders don't

[JohnD]

You may have seen that the Parliamentary Petition system, that 'guarantees' a debate if sufficient sign, has triggered on an "Early General Election".     The result?    A 'debate', yes, but in Westminster Hall, not Parliament.   The Hansard Report is here:  Early General Election - Hansard - UK Parliament

But don't bother to read it.  After an hour and a half of pontificating, the result was and I quote:

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered e-petition 619781, relating to an early general election.
Sitting adjourned.

In other words, a fudge. Yes, there was a debate, yes, the petition was discussed, but in a forum with no powers and no effect.   Long grass, here it comes.     Why bother with a Petition system if it is treated with such contempt?

John

[zetecspit]

I have been pondering why Truss is still there. 

And now I wonder if she is going to be a place to unload some more toxic stuff so when she goes, teh noobie will have a clean slate. Just seems a possibilty. But what do I know? 

[DeTRacted]

6 hours ago, JohnD said:

 Why bother with a Petition system if it is treated with such contempt?

 

Because John, it isn't part of the democratic process. The country is not governed by petition - 99% of the populace probably didn't even know there was one.  You can't go making changes on that basis - there would have to be a proper nationwide referendum. 

[JohnD]

Who in the nation didn't have an opportunity to sign the petition?

 

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, DeTRacted said:

democratic process

Which democratic process is this? The one where a self-selected very few, some not even UK citizens, with very specific interests and prejudices, got to choose a party leader, and made an astonishingly poor choice (again).

Or the one where the newly chosen leader goes off in a completely different direction from the mandate her party won its last election on.  Or the part where she is replaced for all practical purposes by a third party who absolutely nobody chose, who is going off in another direction nobody voted for, admittedly partly in order to damp down the fires started by the previous lunatic…..

Truly you could not make it up 

We have a German colleague in the office this week…. Except he used to be English.  Becoming German is looking like a better decision every day he reckons…..

[RogerH]

Terry Pratchett summed it up.

The Patrician said to an inquiring group

" of course this is s a democratic state. One man One vote.   I am the man and I have the vote" 

I can see Scottish Independence showing its head over the horizon.  Our shambles will not be able to stop it. 

Roger

[JohnD]

I may have said before. Daughter studied in Scotland, is married to a Scot, and Grandsons have Scots names.  If people with Irish great-grandparents can claim to be Irish, and if Scotland goes it alone and rejoins Europe, can I claim to be Scots?   Please?

[Nick Jones]

15 minutes ago, JohnD said:

can I claim to be Scots?   Please?

I was born in Aberdeen….. does that count?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/19/uk-austerity-voters-brexit-cuts-chaos

Interesting piece. The description of the Truss creature as a “barely human shield” early on made me chuckle, though personally I think he’s being a bit generous.

General election urgently required please……

[Nick Jones]

21 hours ago, zetecspit said:

And now I wonder if she is going to be a place to unload some more toxic stuff so when she goes, teh noobie will have a clean slate.

No one in the “governing classes” of the Tory MPs should be granted a clean slate. They are all part and party to the utter shit-show of appalling governance and decision making of the last decade that has brought this country to a very low place over the last decade plus.

Labour, quite frankly, little better for much of that period for doing so little to be effective opposition, but now looking like a very good alternative to the total clusterfuck that is the Con picnic. Not to mention the only alternative. 
 

Frankly the Tories would do better to just hand over, they look worse with each passing hour they remain. Government in name only. No one is fooled any more.

[Hamish]

Well

looks like she’s gone

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/liz-truss-announces-resignation

 

will it be Boris part 2

[Escadrille Ecosse]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

can I claim to be Scots?   Please?

Anyone can John. You don't even have to live here (eg Mr Connery) just say you support indepence and you're a shoe-in.

You are all welcome to come though and I'd be happy to have you all here anyway regardless. I like it here. Bit damp perhaps but nice scenery and with around £1500 per person spent on Scots by the NHS thanks to Westminster largess if you look after yourself you will be a lot better looked after. Even though the actual health outcome for Scotland as a whole is dire.

However given the enthusiasm shown I would like you to do some homework on why you would be materially better off living in a notionally independent Scotland. Independent in the same way that the UK has found itself independent post Brexit.

Not having to put up with a disfunctional and downright irrational Tory party does not count as materially better off. Emotionally perhaps. But not materially.

And no confirmation bias or wishfull thinking. Like we would be able to quickly meet the EU accession criteria, in particular the economic convergence criteria, to get into Europe any time quickly (the average is 9 years to date) or that in the meantime being tied to Sterling would still allow an independent monetary policy to help a brand new economy with huge legacy borrowing, a requirement for a lot more borrowing and an unknown credit rating.

It is possible we could do a Switzerland or Norway and participate through the EFTA and/or EEA but again that would need a lot of negotiation with the EU and individual EU states to come about.

Anyway glad to see Truss is gone and surely this farrago cannot continue much longer. Can it?

[JohnD]

Thanks, Colin, for the invitation and the detail.  I fear that becoming Scots wouldn't be as simple as that, but although, surely, the UK/England will eventually rejoin Europe, an independent Scotland would equally surely be further up the queue?

That's what hurts me most.   Not being European, a more cosmopolitan group than any other, an area and people that have done more for the good of the world (and bad) than any other.  And one that could be a better influence on the world than any other.

John

 

 

[thebrookster]

1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

However given the enthusiasm shown I would like you to do some homework on why you would be materially better off living in a notionally independent Scotland.

Why do we have to be materially better off to vote for independence? So long we don't suffer negatively (outside the immediate fluctuations that is likely to be inevitable after such a change) then that surely can be enough?

You dismiss the concept of being rid of a dysfunctional tory party as simply an "emotional" benefit, however I would argue that separating from a direct Westminster influence is definitely a material benefit. Mainly from a purely democratic point of view. Scotland has not voted for the government in power in Westminster, and have not done so for over a decade. And, as the last decade has shown, it simply doesn't matter for whom or how Scotland votes, We get what England wants, and even together all the devolved nations play second fiddle to England. Brexit is proof of that.

The reverse is also true. By allowing the devolved nations to become more autonomous England has a chance to actually govern itself with its own elected MP's, which would negate the "EVEL" framework introduced a while back and provide them with a government who can concentrate on their country. 

I will say, in general I personally would support further devolution over full independence. Let each devolved nation run itself, and co-operate on areas that effect us as a island nation. Such as Armed Forces/Defence, Customs and Passport control etc, which each nation pays into. However, given current situation I cannot see that being an option, and frankly given the state of politics in England I would rather take full independence than remain related to that mess. Whatever the downsides may be, because I am frankly of the view that remaining tethered to Westminster for the foreseeable future is likely to be far more damaging.

 

 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Yes Phil, but the biggest issue with the Tories, general nonsense and nastiness aside, the main reason we are having this conversation is the general and specific economic distress visited upon us by them over the last 12 years. Brexit included.

If there was some objective and non-partisan assessment that things would likely be better or even just as good cut away from the UK then I would be prepared to consider it.

But we have to start from where we are and the starting conditions for independence are getting worse not better.

[Nick Jones]

As I said before, stronger and more prosperous together. Even more so in the EU.  Would hopefully be much easier to rejoin the EU as a single nation.

I suspect that Scotlands main gripes and drivers for independence are much the same irritants that afflict pretty much everywhere outside of the Westminster bubble. Spare a thought those of us who don’t even have the (admittedly meagre) benefits of devolution, or even the dream of independence to fall back on.

As for the Con Picnic shitshow….. bloody Truss has finally gone, her record of the greatest damage in the shortest time hopefully never to be broken. And yet, apparently the same minute and unrepresentative group who chose her apparently get to have another go. WTaF?!!

As the mendacious tub of lard fancying his chances again, FFS that experiment has already been tried, didn’t go at all well and does NOT need repeating.

In any actually functioning democracy we’d be getting a GE…..

[Escadrille Ecosse]

11 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

In any actually functioning democracy we’d be getting a GE…..

Would requre a shred of decency to exist

[Nick Jones]

12 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Would requre a shred of decency to exist

Minimal evidence for that in the Con picnic…. And rather alot against.

[thebrookster]

23 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

But we have to start from where we are and the starting conditions for independence are getting worse not better.

The conditions for staying in the Union are looking decidedly worse however................ 

22 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

 

22 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

As the mendacious tub of lard fancying his chances again, FFS that experiment has already been tried, didn’t go at all well and does NOT need repeating.

Going by the rumour mill called the BBC, it looks like he is planning to make another go of it. God help us all. 

22 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

As I said before, stronger and more prosperous together. Even more so in the EU.  Would hopefully be much easier to rejoin the EU as a single nation.

I think that doesn't even qualify as a pipe dream anymore. The state that the UK is in now I cannot see the EU wanting us back. We will be more a burden on them than pretty much any other country already there. And, as above, if depiffle actually succeeds multiply that by whatever magnitude you want.

And it doesn't matter what happens now, I cannot see any improvement happening. We do not have an opposition to the Tories, they are all self serving money grabbing b******s whose only aim is to milk the country further. Every government since Thatcher has been at it, and now there is almost nothing left except the NHS. Problem is, even if we get a party in power with an idea of economics that isn't neo-liberal in founding, it will take so long to bring back the services under national control that we should control that we will likely bankrupt the country for an eternity. And make the rich t***s even richer in the process. So I really don't see any hope for the UK in my lifetime certainly, and probably longer, as it would appear that is what the vast majority of the English population want, as they keep voting for it time and time again. 

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, thebrookster said:

it would appear that is what the vast majority of the English population want, as they keep voting for it time and time again

Demonstrates the value of having the media barons on your side unfortunately, and large parts of the population insufficiently well educated to read their propaganda critically.

[zetecspit]

I really do not want to see a general election for a while. To do so now would make Labour lazy, they wouldn't have to try and that could cause chaos. 

Let the cons have their new leader (please don't let it be Boris) hopefully calms things down and an election in a years time.

Better government happens when there is a strong opposition. And worryingly there hasn't been a strong oppsition for some time. I also have concerns that Momentum will have a resurgance and undue influence. 

But whatever happens, it is going to be a bumpy few years, and I just hope the country can function properly as the politicioals squabble amongst themselves.

 

[JohnD]

It's unbelievable!  Are we living in the UK or Oz?   You know, Dorothy,  Wizards and all that, not that upside lot on t'other side of t'world.

DePfuffle is flying back from his Caribbean holiday to enter the beauty contest for First Fairy!  The Unconvicted Convict seriously thinks he can have another swim in the slush pile. And there are Tory snouts eager to join him, as heard grunting on Today this morning.    Nick Robinson could not keep the dripping sarcasm from his voice as he asked several porkers, "Why?  What possible advantage would you, the Party and the Country gain by appointing him?", an Unconvicted Criminal, charged before the Parliamentary Priviledges Committee, which could expel him from the House.

This sure ain't Kansas, Toto!

 

John

[Nick Jones]

34 minutes ago, zetecspit said:

I really do not want to see a general election for a while. To do so now would make Labour lazy, they wouldn't have to try and that could cause chaos. 

 Lazy? Whomever inherits the current mess gets something just a little above a smoking crater. They’ll have their work cut out. And the Tory press constantly sniping at them. As for chaos….. what is it we have been living with?

And as for another two years of this shower, any organisation that is even considering returning to that disastrous pile of barf it only recently managed to puke up….. is very clearly not fit to be in power. As if more proof were needed.  Enough is surely enough.

 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

14 hours ago, thebrookster said:

And it doesn't matter what happens now, I cannot see any improvement happening. We do not have an opposition to the Tories, they are all self serving money grabbing b******s whose only aim is to milk the country further. Every government since Thatcher has been at it, and now there is almost nothing left except the NHS. Problem is, even if we get a party in power with an idea of economics that isn't neo-liberal in founding, it will take so long to bring back the services under national control that we should control that we will likely bankrupt the country for an eternity. And make the rich t***s even richer in the process. So I really don't see any hope for the UK in my lifetime certainly, and probably longer, as it would appear that is what the vast majority of the English population want, as they keep voting for it time and time again. 

Yeah Phil. Keep thinking it can't get worse.

Then it does.

 

[thebrookster]

1 hour ago, zetecspit said:

Better government happens when there is a strong opposition. And worryingly there hasn't been a strong opposition for some time. I also have concerns that Momentum will have a resurgance and undue influence. 

What "strong opposition" do you think is going to arrive? Maybe I am too idealistic in my views, but for me one of the qualifiers for a "strong opposition" is an opposing political ideology, to provide balance. Momentum is the only group that looks to provide that currently, as right now we have a fascist tory party and a slightly less fascist labour party. Anything that can bring a semblance of balance to that can only be good thing, in my opinion.

 

[PeterC]

Its a mess, agreed. But we are at war, we cant blame Westminster for that. A bit of Churchillian spirit might help. Wake up and smell the Coffey.