May's Brexit Plan

[GT6MK3]

Here's a tip folks.  

When an admin asks you nicely to leave a thread alone for 48 hours, he's actually saying that the thread is under threat of closure because of the posters recent behaviour.

I'll be more clear.

Please self moderate yourselves and save me from doing it.  Take 48 hours off this tread, and when you come back to it, keep the conversation nice, listen to other points of view, and have a conversation, not just a lecture.

Or, I can hit the big bad moderator button.

 

Your choice.

 

Craig

(The admin who is apparently deeply ignorant.  More of that later.)

[PeterC]

3 hours ago, Scooter said:

We’ll be alright here in the UK, but the relentless battle to drive ‘oldtimers’ Off the roads of the EU continues apace.

. The only reason UK is exempt is because Roadworthiness  was downgraded to a Directive, giving our DoT leeway in interpretation. If the wrecks being driven east from the Visigrad countries continue to kill and maim western europeans anything old will be verboten by converting a Directive into e Regulation. Then only brexit will save UK old motors, and then only on UK roads - no cross-channel jaunts.

Peter

[GT6MK3]

Fair enough.

 

Peter, you've added ignoring me to insulting me.

 

See you all in 48 hours.

 

Click

[GT6MK3]

I can think of many reasons I'd like to leave this closed.  Things like personal attacks, opinion dressed up as fact, and the simple reality that this thread became the online equivalent of two groups shouting at each other from opposite sides of a room, never planning to listen each other.  Then there's the poster who (on a dispassionate re-read) has delighted in throwing incendiary grenades, but not added to the discussion.  So it turned into something that isn't useful or helpful.

But this is an important issue to many here (while it's just the opposite to some...)

If we're going to try this again, we do so with some ground rules, most of which are the unwritten way we act around here most of the time. 

First please remember why were here.  This is a site for automobile enthusiasts to share knowledge and ideas, not a political site.

Second, no personal attacks or belittlement.  Your opinion is just that, opinion.  You're welcome to share it, but not to expect that having done so, everyone will agree.

Third, no racism.  None. (maybe that should have been first.)

Fourth, if you state an option as fact, and get called out to back it up with facts, have the courtesy to do so with facts (not more opinion).

Finally, to try to keep the posts here considered, a simple restriction.  On post, per poster, per day.  Thats all in this thread.  Think about what you want to say, don't just fire back and forth with slogans or baiting posts.

 

Please keep it nice.

 

C.

[PeterC]

The only thing all of us posters share is an interest in old motors, with more of an emphasis on technology than other sites. So it is hardly surprisng that  we differ in our approaches to europe and brexit. Thats what makes the thread interesting.

I would have cited the 2012 EU Commissionaire's ( Siim Kallas) Roadworthiness draft Regulations but all the links I had bookmarked are all 404s, on Brussles servers, and on FBHVC. It was clear in 2012 that FIVA;s advice to Kallas was that only wholly original vehicles in every respect ( i/c paint) were to be approved as historic and allowed on the roads.  If the Directive now in place deos not eliminate dangerously unsafe eastern european vehicles from europe's roads then I see the situaiton being revisted by Brussels. And our hobby put at risk again. Its the best argument I have seen for brexit, but undeniably parochial.

Peter

[AB|W]

"...If the Directive now in place does not eliminate dangerously unsafe eastern European vehicles from Europe's roads then...…"

reintroduce a mandatory MOT.

Alan

[PaulAA]

Absolutely, Alan.  Europe-wide vehicle compliance legislation should mean that a uniform Europe-wide MOT is not only possible but desirable.

I'm afraid that Peter's denunciation of unroadworthy cars in the evil East is not far off the mark.  The bar for technical performance is set very low and application even lower.  At one inspection, the seven year-old vehicle I took wasn't even physically inspected.  But the vehicle was formally passed as roadworthy.

On the one hand, the quality of vehicle body repair here is surprisingly high, but, on the other, write-offs are imported from the West, patched up and returned to the road.  In the Venn Diagram of car repairs, those two facts do not necessarily overlap.

When my TR was registered as an historic vehicle, it required a once-only technical inspection.  That was nearly six years ago and, although I endeavour to maintain the vehicle in good, roadworthy condition, the quality and thoroughness of the voluntary inspections I submit it for leave a lot to be desired.  Far from meaning the death of old cars on our roads, a universal technical standard would simply ensure that they are safer.  This is something the EU could deliver for the good.

Paul

[Nick B.]

2 hours ago, PeterC said:

The only thing all of us posters share is an interest in old motors, with more of an emphasis on technology than other sites. So it is hardly surprisng that  we differ in our approaches to europe and brexit. Thats what makes the thread interesting.

I would have cited the 2012 EU Commissionaire's ( Siim Kallas) Roadworthiness draft Regulations but all the links I had bookmarked are all 404s, on Brussles servers, and on FBHVC. It was clear in 2012 that FIVA;s advice to Kallas was that only wholly original vehicles in every respect ( i/c paint) were to be approved as historic and allowed on the roads.  If the Directive now in place deos not eliminate dangerously unsafe eastern european vehicles from europe's roads then I see the situaiton being revisted by Brussels. And our hobby put at risk again. Its the best argument I have seen for brexit, but undeniably parochial.

Peter

Correct me if I am wrong, the fact that we are talking about a directive - not a law - does this not mean that it will be the individual EU-countries that will be drafting it into law? In Denmark it will be the Danish Historical Vehicle Association that will be advising the government on these issues. So it is still a national thing how it will be implemented - and if cars should suit the anoraks with original paint. 

Cheers

Nick - happy about modified cars and EU :-)

[PeterC]

49 minutes ago, Nick B. said:

Correct me if I am wrong, the fact that we are talking about a directive - not a law - does this not mean that it will be the individual EU-countries that will be drafting it into law? In Denmark it will be the Danish Historical Vehicle Association that will be advising the government on these issues. So it is still a national thing how it will be implemented - and if cars should suit the anoraks with original paint. 

Cheers

Nick - happy about modified cars and EU :-)

Nick, In 2012 the scheme was conceived by the EU Commission as a Regulation, whcih would have given national governemnts NO say in how the law was implelemted, Two years later it emerged asa Directive whcih gives leeway to nayional auhtorities. It was desgned to get death trap Romania etc cars and waggons off the road many of which are of classic age. I still see a threat to our cars if the Directive is being ignored in Romania, Bulgaria, Poland etc and million mile Merc taxis with bald tyres are still plying for trade.   The Regulation that FIVA recommended would have killed the classic car industry dead. Better to be certain it cant be revived in UK.  

Peter

[JohnD]

Peter, Peter,

You allege gross negligence by the entire Romanian, Bulgarian and Polish nations.    Come on - you're a man of science, used to presenting evidence.  Can you back up your allegations?

I cannot do so on maintenance, but just watching a few dashcam videos shows shocking standards of driving in Russia et al, even accepting the adverse driving conditions they tolerate.    In many incidents the cars do what in air accidents terms is "controlled flight into terrain", with absolutely no attempt to brake or avoid other vehicles, indicating either unconciousness or intoxication.   In contrast, UK dashcam videos show incidents that merely draw a 'tut-tut', rather than a "Jesus H.Christ!" from the viewer.  

Other videos from Russia show miraculous abilities to repair and unbend crashed vehicles.  I'm thinking of the extarordinary Gospodin Artur Tussik, but even if he can straighten it, surely the energy absorbing capacity of the crush structures will be impaired?

John

 

[richy_rich]

Let's not pretend that the UK MOT system is infallible, as an ex-pat who's worked in the trade I know that it's entirely possible to get an MOT through the post (and on the computer) without anyone involved ever having seen the vehicle in question... Because hypothetical owners don't/won't speak the local language and re-registering their possibly/probably dangerously unsafe 30 year old Volvo or whatever is too much 'hard-work' and besides 'we'd have to change the headlights and you never know - we might go back to the uk'.

There are plenty of brits driving around Europe in uninsured shitwagons that shouldn't be on the road too  

[PeterC]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

Peter, Peter,

You allege gross negligence by the entire Romanian, Bulgarian and Polish nations.    Come on - you're a man of science, used to presenting evidence.  Can you back up your allegations?

John

 

John, I explained in an earlier post that the documents relating to the  draft 2012 Regulation on Roadworthiness are NLA. That is where the stats for EU-wide roadside vehicle spot- testing were presented. There was a big problem with eastern bloc vehicles that prompted the EU's intention to ban all vehicles over a certain age. And FIVA provided them a definfition of a histroic vehicle that excluded anythinh IIRC over 15 years old that was not a totally original museum piece.  MoT testing in the eastern nations was not regarded as being an answer,  so anything over 15 ( but it might have been 10) years old would simply be banned form europe's roads.

Perhaps Paul can tell us if the wrecks no longer drive around eastern EU roads. If they do, the Directive will have failed and a revision anticipated. 

Peter

Edited January 4, 2019 by PeterC

[Nick Jones]

Thing is Peter, this didn’t actually happen. We in the UK retain the right to allow classics to be used on the roads without restriction, and even modify them, where in other EU member nations they cannot. This a position we were able to achieve as a member nation protecting its own interests and values. And, as EU members we can still drive our vehicles on their roads without question. As non-members.....? Another one on the the great list of unknowns. Isn’t it grand...... No say in any further developments when outside the EU. I used to like driving my Vitesse around Europe...... Please don’t say “we’ll negotiate a better deal”.... we will not.

I think you’ll find that apart from tightening up the testing regimes in member nations, sorely needed I’m sure you will agree - remember the semi- mobile wreckage that used to clatter about rural France 30 years back before the ControleTechnique? - that classic driving rights and modification rules have remained separate from country to country and continue reflect each country’s basic philosophy from times before the EU got involved.

The biggest threat to continued classic car use will be their emissions becoming unacceptable and/or fossil fuel use becoming unacceptable. We could be surprised how quickly - though I reckon a couple of decades left. If we are not back in caves and wearing skins and wode by then.....

[PeterC]

Nick,  Yes a decade maybe a bit more. The threats I see are from Green politicians (in mainland europe) and aerial pollution in most UK cities. Both poltical pressures work agianst us. The exemption from the MoT may also be a subtle way to achieve a ban on classics form the road...the first fatal accidents  caused by classic failures will be used to ban us all. Its a minority interest with a growing image problem and absence of interest by the young, leaviing us vulnerable to polticlans jmping on a green bandwaggon.

The other threat is battery technology. A 3 to 10 fold increase in enrgy density shoudl give a 400 mile range to an e-car. The disappearnce of petrol pumps may then be quite rapid as poluted cities can then ban fossil fuelled vehicles with ease.

Peter

 

[oldtuckunder]

6 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

If we are not back in caves and wearing skins and wode by then.....

Is that really going to be compulsory if Brexit goes ahead  

[Nick Jones]

Not until you’ve worn out all your old clothes......

[Scooter]

On 1/1/2019 at 1:39 PM, PeterC said:

. The only reason UK is exempt is because Roadworthiness  was downgraded to a Directive, giving our DoT leeway in interpretation. If the wrecks being driven east from the Visigrad countries continue to kill and maim western europeans anything old will be verboten by converting a Directive into e Regulation. Then only brexit will save UK old motors, and then only on UK roads - no cross-channel jaunts.

Peter

 

 

The UK is quite a unique case in Europe with regards classic cars.

Its a multi £Billion business and very liberal.

Try running a classic in say Austria

 

 

 

[Scooter]

On 1/5/2019 at 11:09 AM, Nick Jones said:

And, as EU members we can still drive our vehicles on their roads without question. As non-members.....? Another one on the the great list of unknowns. Isn’t it grand..........

 

 

There is nothing 'unknown' about it. 

We're signatories to the 49 Vienna convention, so, a GB sticker on the back and an IDP and we're 100% fit for driving around Europe as we were before they ever even invented the EEC, let alone the EU. Regardez! Triumph even listed a 'Continental Motoring Kit' in the catalogues in the 60's

 

And…

 

 

 

[Chris W]

My GB sticker is blue with 12 gold stars in a circle.  I wonder if that will be allowed after 29/03/19?

[richy_rich]

No, and you also won't be allowed to buy Euromillions tickets

[Hamish]

38 minutes ago, richy_rich said:

No, and you also won't be allowed to buy Euromillions tickets

You’ll be ok. only 9 countries participate and one of those is Switzerland 

[Hamish]

9 hours ago, Chris W said:

My GB sticker is blue with 12 gold stars in a circle.  I wonder if that will be allowed after 29/03/19?

Don’t worry Chris. It will still be 12 as it doesn’t represent member states or countries. 

But if you voted to leave you won’t be needing it, as you only need it to visit and why would you ?!

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by Hamish
.

[Chris W]

On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:13 AM, Hamish said:

Don’t worry Chris. It will still be 12 as it doesn’t represent member states or countries. 

But if you voted to leave you won’t be needing it, as you only need it to visit and why would you ?!

 

Perhaps I should have used the  to indicate a joke.  Actually I think the 12 stars did signify the number of countries in the EU, pre enlargement.

I'm not sure why you think I voted Leave but regardless, I can think of many reasons why I would want to drive in other European Countries.  France: Le Mans, Angouleme, my house & to get anywhere else. Belgium: My Great Uncle's grave (Ypres), Spa. Germany: Nurburgring, my company's HQ in Munich and so on...........

[Hamish]

No offence meant. 

I used to tour quite a bit in Europe on my motorbikes with my brother and mates over there. Loved it. 

Brother lives in Switzerland  so that was typically the starting point. So for me it was a 900 mile jaunt to the start and to get home. The Chunnel was a god send as I occasionally did that bit in a day. 

I do fancy taking my 3a over Maybe a classic race meeting ? Spa, Le Mans? 

The touring bikes have gone since moving to classic cars. One singe garage is just not enough space. 

H

[JohnD]

No Classic Le Mans this year, next in 2020.

The CSCC will be going to Spa again in 2019, and there were 13 Triumphs in the races there in '18.

Angouleme?   Solitude Revival?

John