Brexit deal

[zetecspit]

I see that a deal is almost there.

And I was having a think about the timing. The reality (I think) is that it was inevitable a deal would be left to the very last possible moment. I know there were deadlines and so on that both sides blustered on about, going back to? October? Earlier? 

But both sides stuck their heels in one way or another. I read that Mr Macron was in the EU's bad books for holding things up (he thinks it will appeal to the French electorate) but the channel holdups may have been a step to far for him. After all it seems that the "Kent" covid variant is already in many parts of Europe, and is possibly where it originated, Kent being the gateway to England from France. 

Anyway, just like I did at skool/college/uni and indeed work, everything is left until you really REALLY have to do it. Now both sides have (rightly?) stuck to their guns and done all the chest puffing etc, but the reality is a deal is essential for both sides, so finally the stumbling blocks are being dealt with so neither side is totally happy, but both can live with the compromises. That was always going to be the case, it is almost unheard of for both sides to be totally happy with a deal (in private, usually it is all smiles in public)

What the final deal looks like will take a little while to emerge. And yes, both side the politicians will be doing a little work over the "break" to get it signed off in time. And no, i don't feel sorry for them, its their job. 

Anyway, I feel I needed to "vent" a bit, I feel better now. And now off shopping. After all, it is the traditional day for a bloke to go foraging for Christmas gifts for the lady wife..

[JohnD]

Covid is a gods-given excuse for the Johnson Show (shower?) for all the short-comings, -goings and shortages that result from it.   

No wonder Johnson laughs at Brexit, he's drawn the best 'Get out of Jail Free' card there ever was!

[Nick Jones]

I dunno.... he’s made such a pigs breakfast out of both issues, there is minimal “success” to point to.

For me the treatment of the stranded lorry drivers is the empathy and ability of this govt encapsulated.  None of either.

[roulli]

Oh my goodness!

That would then be the only positive news for this whole sh.... year.

With keeping up that positive tendency, UK might be back in the EU  by the end of 2021, one never knows...

[zetecspit]

Back home now.

I am just glad that a deal has been done. It sounds like it is as good a deal as we were ever likely to realistically get. 

As to lorry drivers, Mr Macron may have done himself no favours. But agreed, logistically a lot more should have been done, and quickly. Can't have been too difficult to organise loos/showers and I am sure there are plenty of burger vans who could do with some business.

[RedRooster]

And if the new virus was in France what do you think the English would have done? Actually as i was writing that i thought the answer would have been to do nothing.

Yet to see th trade agreement so will hold back comments on that for now.

RR

 

[MilesA]

Must be the first trade deal in history to impose 'friction' and bureaucracy with a major trading partner where none previously existed. Another deeply depressing day in the saga of this country's commercial and social wellbeing being sacrificed by the over-vaulting ambition of a single, selfish, incompetent individual.

I'll get off the fence now...

Miles 

[Spit131]

HAPPY CHRISTMAS ALL !!
( For 24 hours try and ignore the inevitable never receding global corruption folks ) XXX

[zetecspit]

2 hours ago, MilesA said:

Must be the first trade deal in history to impose 'friction' and bureaucracy with a major trading partner where none previously existed. Another deeply depressing day in the saga of this country's commercial and social wellbeing being sacrificed by the over-vaulting ambition of a single, selfish, incompetent individual.

I'll get off the fence now...

Miles 

But rather better than the looming alternative? That was the point I was relieved about.

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

All Gov'ts have faults and failings. The UK Gov'ts appear to specialise in being rather useless on what appear to the common man as being important.

The lorry drivers plight could easily have been eased by calling in the army soup kitchens and porta Loo's etc.

I have my own views on the Gov;t reaction to the recent plague

However Brexit was a multi Govt battle. Lies and cheating at each twist and turn. Obviously nobody would give an inch until the last moment

I do not know what we have given away but the overall free trade agreement sounds as though we have got a good deal.

Boris's objectors will always be his objectors. They will never see good in the man. But does that matter. Not in the least.

The democratic vote on Brexit has achieved its aims - we will  definitely be out in a weeks time, we have a trade deal that ensures our business, in the main, will function.

 

Very few things are perfect (including my welding) but it could be worse - we could have no deal. 

Get on with your lives. Be charitable to one and all. Accept that this deal will not affect your existence very much of at all.

 

May 2021 get back to normal asap.  Get that TRiumph out and use up all the fossil fuel.

 

Roger

 

  

[Nick Jones]

So Brexiters......

As I have said before, one of my principle resentments of the whole thing is that my children were born as citizens of the EU.  Free to travel, live and work across a large, diverse and mainly prosperous area.  They have had this taken from them before (in one case) they were deemed old enough to vote.  Now, just at the time when they are starting their careers, that door has been slammed in their faces.  I have also had this taken from me even though, so any dreams/plans I might have had to retire somewhere with a warmer winter climate have been greatly complicated (at best).

There are many other losses that have come from this miserable, unnecessary and artificially manufactured "problem" - not least the truly monumental amount of taxpayers money and civil service time expended (and still to be expended) on it.  Resources that could have been so much better spent.

Can one of you, any of you, all of you, please list the actual, tangible benefits that brexit and this wonderful new deal will bring us?

 

[Nick Jones]

23 hours ago, RogerH said:

Boris's objectors will always be his objectors. They will never see good in the man. But does that matter. Not in the least.

I think you maybe need to come outside your hall of mirrors and take a good look around.  This man, and the sorry band of idiots he calls his cabinet, have done (and are still doing) this country and it's people great and largely unnecessary harm.

This isn't a party political discussion as far as I'm concerned, it's about competent government, doing it's job.  That is to look after the the interests and well being of the United Kingdom and ALL it's people.  Not just a few of the seriously rich and their foreign mates.  I loathe Johnson for his totally corrupt self-interest and utter disregard for the responsibilities of his office.

Competent government (any semblance of) went with Cameron when he allowed the whole sorry mess to come to pass.  It grieves me to remember that I helped that idiot to power because I was so pissed of with Labour after the Iraq war........

Labour too much share blame for the sorry state of the country for being such ineffectual opposition.  Corbyn was a hopeless leader.  Not especially impressed with Starmer thus far either, though he has poor cards in his hand and the spectre of Corbyn hanging over him.

23 hours ago, RogerH said:

The democratic vote on Brexit has achieved its aims

It wasn't democratic (we've had this argument before many times and I'll not go back over it) and it's aims were never clearly stated.  I refer you to my previous post and the question I posed there. 

[thebrookster]

On 12/25/2020 at 10:50 AM, RogerH said:

I do not know what we have given away but the overall free trade agreement sounds as though we have got a good deal.

That is complete and utter bollocks. England, and the privileged rich have gotten a good deal. Everyone else, no chance. Small businesses (in particular those small specialist producing companies) have lost a huge market, and now have to ensure that their products meet two sets of standards instead of one. Farming has lost, in particular North English/Scottish farms.

Our Border Security will now be compromised, due to the loss of access to several key databases.

I'm failing to see where "the good deal" comes into this, other than what I am continuously reading in headlines on the BBC (about as corrupt as they come) and tabloids (ohh, guess what, all owned by Murdoch). Maybe you are stupid enough to be taken in by what they are trying to ram down our throats, but I sure don't believe a word of it.

On 12/25/2020 at 10:50 AM, RogerH said:

Get on with your lives. Be charitable to one and all. Accept that this deal will not affect your existence very much of at all.

Wrong. Farmers, seafarers, anyone in Higher Education. Job market has just drastically reduced in size. Hospitality industry. Frankly, a rather patronising statement.

On 12/25/2020 at 10:50 AM, RogerH said:

Boris's objectors will always be his objectors. They will never see good in the man. But does that matter. Not in the least.

A statement that is startlingly similar to the arguments for Trump. Boris is a complete laughing stock in the international arena as an incompetent idiot.

If he had actually done anything good, I would happily attribute it too him, but I haven't found anything yet.

On 12/25/2020 at 10:50 AM, RogerH said:

The democratic vote on Brexit has achieved its aims

I've said it before, and I will say it again. I DO NOT LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT "DEMOCRATICALLY" VOTED FOR BREXIT, IN FACT THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE. You keep posting this tripe, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Maybe it is time Sideways installs a fact checker/fake news filter, because your constant posting of it doesn't make any more true.

All I hope now is that Scotland and Northern Ireland push hard for independence, and distance themselves as fast as possible from the sinking ship that is currently the United Kingdom.

 

[zetecspit]

3 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Can one of you, any of you, all of you, please list the actual, tangible benefits that brexit and this wonderful new deal will bring us?

It is better than the no deal we were looking increasingly likely to have. Also, despite what many have been saying, it seems Boris really did want to get the deal, otherwise he could easily have let time run out?

You cannot compare (read as you will into that) the "new deal" to being an EU member. That has gone, no point in wishing for something we have left behind.

I would also quibble with the think about it not being democratic. Despite me voting remain, I understood perfectly well what the question was on the referendum. I don't know how it could have been clearer.

Phil, the country you live in voted to remain as part of the UK. The UK voted to leave. But I have no complaints if Scotland wants to go it alone. NI is a much muddier scenario. Created so those in Ireland who wanted to remain British could do so. But recent events, and with many people  putting the past behind them may see a change of heart. But how can that be decided if referendums are not democratic?

Besides, this makes interesting reading (I checked thE publisher, seems to be funded by a "progressive" bunch, not right wingers)  https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/snp-must-rethink-its-economic-model-independent-scotland/

[TR5tar]

Despite all the pantomime, the smoke and mirrors, the egos and chest beating on all sides, the result is exactly what I believed all along it would be ... a zero quota, zero tariff deal. Big business was never going to let a no deal happen, there's just too much money wrapped up in it all, so I had few doubts about the result. The only potential fly in the ointment now is if one or two EU states decide to veto it. That's probably unlikely, but who knows. I think the unity of the EU isn't all it is made out to be.

Whether people feel the deal is good or not, whether they wanted Brexit or not, is all a bit academic now. We are where we are and in my opinion have more important problems to worry about. We can each have opinions about how good or bad Brexit will prove, but the reality remains that only time will tell. I for one will be pleased to move on from it. 

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and I wish you all a Happy New Year.    

[RogerH]

5 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

 

This isn't a party political discussion as far as I'm concerned, it's about competent government, doing it's job.

 

Hi Nick,

I do not want to rub salt into your wounds but in my meagre lifetime we, the UK, have never had a competent Gov't

Every UK Gov't has been subservient to one nation or another. 

We have always given our prized possessions away or simply dumped them because somebody told us to do so.

The nearest we came to a Gov't that had control was with Thatcher. She destroyed  the housing market so as to put pennies in yuppies pockets.

Money goes to money.  She was a disgrace to the common man.

They have either lined their own pockets or the pockets of friends, or squandered natural resources.

 

On this occasion the country was allowed to vote on a direction. We have now set sail.

 

Roger

[thebrookster]

1 hour ago, zetecspit said:

Phil, the country you live in voted to remain as part of the UK. The UK voted to leave. But I have no complaints if Scotland wants to go it alone. NI is a much muddier scenario. Created so those in Ireland who wanted to remain British could do so. But recent events, and with many people  putting the past behind them may see a change of heart. But how can that be decided if referendums are not democratic?

One of the many promises made by the "Better Together" campaign group was that by remaining in the UK Scotland would remain part of the EU. Since then, Scotland voted decisively to remain in the EU (62% to 38%), and could be argued that they continued that sentiment by voting strongly SNP in every election since.

I also contend that the "UK" voted to leave. England & Wales voted to leave.

The "UK" in terms of the Brexit vote comprised of England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland & Gibraltar. 

Gibraltar voted 95% to remain.

Scotland voted 62% to remain.

Northern Ireland voted 55% to remain.

The sheer numbers involved in England's population are such that it actually doesn't matter how any of the "devolved" countries vote, they will always be overruled by England. 3 out of 5 member countries voted to remain, they were overridden without any choice, or option to separate by England.

That is anything but democratic. And unless any future referendum of any kind (across the UK) can address that, they simply cannot be democratic. And of course, that will never happen, because England simply will not tolerate any possibility of losing control. You only need to look at the EVEL farce to prove that point.

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, RogerH said:

in my meagre lifetime we, the UK, have never had a competent Gov't

I wouldn't argue that the UK has rarely, if ever, had a fully competent government.  Probably there is no such thing.......  However, can you you really dispute that the May and Johnson one, especially the latter, have plumbed new depths? 

 

4 hours ago, zetecspit said:

It is better than the no deal we were looking increasingly likely to have. Also, despite what many have been saying, it seems Boris really did want to get the deal, otherwise he could easily have let time run out?

Agreed (with the possible caveat that no deal might have resulted in Johnson getting his come-uppance a bit sooner).  However, I'm with Darren on this.  He knew he had to do a deal of some kind or perish, so he was always going to try pretty hard for something.  At his competence level though..... the fear of "mishap" was always there.

 

3 hours ago, RogerH said:

We have always given our prized possessions away or simply dumped them because somebody told us to do so.

Maybe so.... but never on this scale.  So I return to my original question, totally unanswered again,

What has the UK gained from this excruciatingly painful, divisive, ruinously expensive process?  What was it that was worth giving up a senior position in the largest collaboration of countries the world has ever seen.  A stable trading relationship and common standards built up over 40 years giving "gateway to Europe" status that has brought huge investment.  Freedom of movement, reciprocal health agreements, security collaborations, scientific collaborations, education collaborations, professional standards/qualifications collaborations - most of which is now gone or severely diminished.

So tell me..... what have we got in return...... what are the much trumpeted "brexit dividends" really?  I not taking the piss - I really want to know what you see?

I await your list......

[zetecspit]

4 hours ago, thebrookster said:

One of the many promises made by the "Better Together" campaign group was that by remaining in the UK Scotland would remain part of the EU. Since then, Scotland voted decisively to remain in the EU (62% to 38%), and could be argued that they continued that sentiment by voting strongly SNP in every election since.

 

I take slight issue with the way you are representing that issue. IIRC, the EU was not going to offer Scotland immediate membership? Scotland would have to tread the same path as other countries applying for EU membership, and that is not a quick process. So Scotland would have been independent AND out of the EU. Be interesting what sort of deal they would have negotiated with the EU at that point.

But as I said, I have no feelings either way on Scotland staying or leaving the UK. The one downside is it would skew the fairly even balance of politics within what would remain of the UK. ie the right would become VERY dominant. 

 

[thebrookster]

9 minutes ago, zetecspit said:

I take slight issue with the way you are representing that issue. IIRC, the EU was not going to offer Scotland immediate membership? Scotland would have to tread the same path as other countries applying for EU membership, and that is not a quick process. So Scotland would have been independent AND out of the EU. Be interesting what sort of deal they would have negotiated with the EU at that point.

The issue seemed to revolve around the uncertainty of how Scotland would join/remain in the EU, as it was an issue that had never come up before and so it would have had to go before the EU parliament to make a decision, something they wanted to avoid unless it became necessary. I presume because of the potential ramifications with regard to Catalonia etc.

However, that doesn't detract from my point, which was that the "Better Together" capitalised on that to sway a lot of undecided voters, and then promptly reneged on it. Hence it has now led to an upswing in support for independence recently, and is also one of the primary arguments for holding another referendum.

[zetecspit]

I had read that if Scotland became an independent State, it would need to apply in the normal way. Some stuff would be easy, ie laws etc are already compliant. Economy and bank situation may be trickier, as I think Scotland hopes to keep sterling even if it leaves? But all moot at the moment, as no sign of another referendum. 

Just thinking about all this, the divorce bill between Scotland and the rest of the UK will make Brexit look like a walk in the park, as the UK is so integrated and has been for so long. The big issue will be how much of the UK government debt Scotland takes. And being a new country, how to secure that debt and future loans. Makes my head hurt even thinking about it.

[Sprint95m]

19 hours ago, zetecspit said:

I had read that if Scotland became an independent State, it would need to apply in the normal way. Some stuff would be easy, ie laws etc are already compliant. Economy and bank situation may be trickier, as I think Scotland hopes to keep sterling even if it leaves? But all moot at the moment, as no sign of another referendum. 

 

There is a Scottish Parliamentary election scheduled for next May, Clive.

If, as seems likely, the pro independence parties achieve an overall majority, then another independence referendum may be happening quite soon?

 

Which currency to use is not such a big deal now apparently.
Scotland has about 1/8th of the UK economy but only 1/12th of the population, but obviously no one knows how Brexit is going to impact on that.

The big difference this time around will be that the threat from Westminster to veto EU membership no longer exists,
therefore the vote will be portrayed as a straight choice between the EU and the UK.
Spain is the one EU state possibly inclined to object to Scotland joining the EU, simply because of the widespread support
clearly seen amongst Scots for an independent Catalan state, but then again Scotland is very important to Spain's economy?

 

Even for someone like me who believes you should try to make the best of the situation you are in,
an independent Scotland does have a pretty compelling appeal.

 

 

Ian

[RedRooster]

On 12/26/2020 at 11:30 AM, Nick Jones said:

Can one of you, any of you, all of you, please list the actual, tangible benefits that brexit and this wonderful new deal will bring us?

 

If its of any comfort, it means i won't be troubling your shores any time soon.

RR

[Nick Jones]

 

12 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

If its of any comfort, it means i won't be troubling your shores any time soon.

Smart move.

Notice how they all rush to answer my question........ 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/27/take-solace-in-this-brexit-deal-it-is-so-terrible-it-will-ultimately-bring-us-back-to-the-eu

[RedRooster]

When you do bother to come over let me know, for accommodation and to meet up with the the Triumph guys this side of the channel.

RR