Closing the "Cradle of Democracy"

[GT6MK3]

Westminster is often held up as the cradle of democracy.

Is it not ironic that it's closing in order to stifle debate and possible action in order to hold it hostage to forcing through the consequences of a non binding referrendum held years ago?

The world is a strange and interesting place.  

[JohnD]

Anywhere, anywhere but Britain, this would cause street riots, barricades, stone throwing, police baton charges, calls for military  involvement, water cannon (If those Boris bought for London, against the advice of the police, hadn't been sold for scrap),  in short, insurrection, if not revolution.     What happens?    The Leader of the Opposition will call a Vote of No Confidence, "at a time of his choosing", and has written a letter to Her Majesty asking for an 'urgent interview'.

I'm sorry, Jeremy, you time-serving, inattentive, indecisive, inadequate pillock.     Alexander de Pfeffel has stolen your opportunity, being a far better politician and - the only point on your favour - a total cynic about politics, democracy, and personal honour.    Despite that, you have totally fur cupped the entire concept of an "Opposition", and YOU will be up against the wall just as de Pfeffel will be, if and when this revolution comes.

I'm as guilty as any of inaction.  I should be out there, oiling the wheels of my tumbril and sharpening my scythe, getting ready to march on Westminster and install a provisonal government, yet I sit here writing this, drinking a cup of tea and eating a teacake.   

Sorry, but I do feel rather strongly about this.   More tea?

John  

 

[2.5piman]

GT6MK3,

of course the referendum is binding, what else could it be, it was not an opinion poll?

Westminster has demonstrated that it does not understand the word democracy,  which is a control by all of the population using elected representitives. It does not mean that parliament decides what it wants and pursues it irrespective of a majority vote.

Alec.

 

 

[Nick Jones]

35 minutes ago, 2.5piman said:

of course the referendum is binding

WRONG!!!

IF it had been legally binding (which is was/is not) it would have been declared void by the electoral commission due to the various "irregularities", which tells much of what you need to know about the quality of "democracy" that started this whole miserable clusterfuck.  And mostly downhill from there. 

Brexiters live in terror of another vote as they know they wouldn't win it.

"Taking back control" I believe is actually a completely honest phrase completely misunderstood by most.  It's about the stinking rich and the corporations taking back control from the EU who have been one of the few organisations on the planet prepared to stand up to them and try to hold them to account.  It is certainly absolutely nothing to do giving back control to the UK electorate - as so emphatically demonstrated today.

I also feel very strongly about it - 'tis pretty much time for the pitchforks I'm afraid!

[RedRooster]

43 minutes ago, 2.5piman said:

of course the referendum is binding, what else could it be, it was not an opinion poll?

Thats exactly what it was legally, an opinion poll.

[Neil T]

11 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

WRONG!!!

IF it had been legally binding (which is was/is not) it would have been declared void by the electoral commission due to the various "irregularities", which tells much of what you need to know about the quality of "democracy" that started this whole miserable clusterfuck.  And mostly downhill from there. 

Brexiters live in terror of another vote as they know they wouldn't win it.

"Taking back control" I believe is actually a completely honest phrase completely misunderstood by most.  It's about the stinking rich and the corporations taking back control from the EU who have been one of the few organisations on the planet prepared to stand up to them and try to hold them to account.  It is certainly absolutely nothing to do giving back control to the UK electorate - as so emphatically demonstrated today.

I also feel very strongly about it - 'tis pretty much time for the pitchforks I'm afraid!

Sorry but the Queen will have not a lot of options remember this was the choice of the people to leave.

[PaulAA]

3 hours ago, GT6MK3 said:

The world is a strange and interesting place.  

Craig, I'm trying to work out where the 'interesting' bit might be lurking.

Trump, BoJo, Bolsonaro, Salvini, Kaczynski, Putin...  we live in a world dominated by 'leaders' whose interest is focused on themselves and their personal ambitions for power, masquerading as 'populists' and characterised by a litany of lies and distortions predicated on groundless accusations against a vague enemy loosely defined as 'elites', 'the liberal left' and 'marxists'.  This is not politics, but the execution of civil war against education, enlightenment and civilisation.  Climate change deniers, religious fruitcakes and patsies to the exploitation of natural resources by Big Business, they will accelerate the ruination of our planet.

Our only hope is that it is an aberration, which will pass quickly, before too much damage is done.

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, Neil T said:

Sorry but the Queen will have not a lot of options remember this was the choice of the people to leave.

On the basis of lies and decades of mis-information, a fair bit of that from the mendacious fat-berg Al de Piffle himself.

 

1 hour ago, PaulAA said:

Our only hope is that it is an aberration, which will pass quickly, before too much damage is done.

I'm not optimistic.  The new dark ages are coming, if not already here.

[PeterC]

 Boris' action today is not aimed at us in UK, Brussels is his target. As germany's economy teaters, along with the italian government, no-deal increasingly looks bad for them, another economic stressor.  BoJo is no fool, My guess, his next step now he has the power will be to threaten Brussels with a NI-wide freeport: no import duties.And Eire will have to erect barriers,while NI business wins bigtime.

But as Paul says, climate change and over=population is the big threat..to our grandchildren. And if brexit forces UK to survive within its own resources we can come out, long term, as survivors of cc.,pandemics and other such insuperable global disasters.

Peter

[richy_rich]

I suspect he just wants to force the opposition (such as it is) into calling for a vote of no confidence and then a general election.  It seems good politics in a way, it puts more pressure on the EU to change their position (they won't, but it can't hurt) and it forces the remain/labour hand a bit, I doubt it's BoJos plan.  More likely Cummings's doing. 

In reality they don't actually lose much time (~4 days?) as amazingly there's a recess in September anyway.  My money's on another extension of some sort and a general election that will basically be a massive leave/remain rematch.  Boris will get away with asking for another extension because it's not his fault.

Or.. less likely is that they might just panic and vote for the withdrawal agreement anyway.  I mean why not? The backstop is only there until a suitable alternative exists, Boris keeps telling the EU there's suitable alternatives and technological solutions etc. so what's the problem (unless someone's fibbing?)

As an aside, free ports are interesting.  Luxembourg has one and the UK used to until not too long ago.  Not sure why this keeps coming up as something you need to leave the EU for... They're not really about import duties though, more like a giant auction/storage house that's not technically in any country for, ahem, tax reasons... 

[PaulAA]

2 hours ago, richy_rich said:

I suspect he just wants to force the opposition (such as it is) into calling for a vote of no confidence and then a general election.  It seems good politics in a way, it puts more pressure on the EU to change their position (they won't, but it can't hurt) and it forces the remain/labour hand a bit, I doubt it's BoJos plan.  More likely Cummings's doing. 

 

Fair summary - taking responsibility is anathema to BoJo, and Rasputin has undoubtedly advised that a VONC (after all, what else can Corbyn do?), a GE and then a campaign based on BoJo's no-deal vision ("It's not my fault, but somebody has to deliver it") would absolve him of any blame.  Since there is no Opposition and the factions opposed to deal and no-deal Brexit are disparate and led de facto by a political expedient who would gladly embrace a no-deal exit if his nemesis hadn't done so first, it looks like a foregone conclusion.

[2.5piman]

Hello GT6,

 

it is as binding as the 1975 referenduim, and as for irregularities, neither Edward Heath nor Harold Wilson, who held the referendum, told the people of the U.K. what the intention of the EEC was which is to rule the member countries with a body that was not elected but selected as countries, individually, can not be trusted. This was the intention all along and gradually, by deception the E.U. has evolved and is getting stronger, and individual countries' powers are removed.

We must get out, and while we could have got out much easier and with little disruption, the collective M.P.s have made a real pigs ear of it. After the declaration of article 50 all M.P.s should have been working together to that end.

Alec

 

[Nick Jones]

Above is why the old should not vote on this...... The ancient prejudices and grudges have no place in today’s world.

Most of the people who will have to live with this don’t even remember Heath or Wilson 

[RedRooster]

17 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Above is why the old should not vote on this...... The ancient prejudices and grudges have no place in today’s world.

Most of the people who will have to live with this don’t even remember Heath or Wilson 

+1

[PaulAA]

47 minutes ago, 2.5piman said:

We must get out

 

Alec

Why?  Other than freedom of movement (which the UK could control unilaterally if it so wished), what aspects of the UK's membership of the EU impact negatively on your life?

I'm not being provocative - I'm just keen to learn.

Paul

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Above is why the old should not vote on this...... The ancient prejudices and grudges have no place in today’s world.

Most of the people who will have to live with this don’t even remember Heath or Wilson 

Hi Nick,

why should the older folk not vote on this? I appreciate that the younger people will have to suffer the consequences if it turns into a dogs breakfast.  But likewise they may actually be allowed to enjoy the freedom they are given.

I am probably more leave than remain but I still look at both sides of the story and am prepared to accept whatever turns up - I actually have no power over the subject.

Young things tend to look on the good side of things and leap in. Old sods then to recount hostory and add up the lies and mis-trust that is spinning around.

As John McDonald said to me at a local residents meeting 10 or more years ago ' you can tell when a politician is lying - his lips move'  An old one indeed but I think rather close to the truth.

Even now at this late date we have remainer politicians declaring certain actions as undemocratic and then ask for another referendum.

They comment on Boris's actions (I can call him Boris as I have actually touched him) as being undemocratic and even illegal but you could bet your seet bippy that they would do the same in the same position.

Last Saturday's Telegraph business section stated what a poor state the German economy is in - investors paying the banks to hold their money negative interest.

And too many EU countries on the verge of collapse - and beyond.

 

Is it wise to be in a club with such poor prospects and in many areas acting illegally itself - accounts !!!

 

I'm still open to fair comment (don;t let the BBC comment on anything) both ways

 

Roger

[JohnD]

Roger,

I suspect we are much of an age, so you will remember travel before Schengen.   Freedom to roam Europe is one that the young will lose, not be given.

I'm no economist, but if the German banks must charge investors a fee for holding their money, doesn't that show a socety replete with cash and investment?     Why is that bad?   Again, you can probably remember inflation in the UK at 10 or even 20%, with interets rates to match, which really impoverishes people, and ruins business.

It's a poor analogy, but we know a Club that a lot of members fled a little while ago, to 'migrate' here.   I don't know how many now go back there, and enjoy the benefits of both, but I hope they will wish to improve the situation at either end, not sit in one camp and throw stones.

JOhn

[PeterC]

1 hour ago, PaulAA said:

Alec

Why?  Other than freedom of movement (which the UK could control unilaterally if it so wished), what aspects of the UK's membership of the EU impact negatively on your life?

I'm not being provocative - I'm just keen to learn.

Paul

Past perfomance is no indication of future performance.  The euro is a failing experiment that is going to destroy the EU. Germany  wins, the rest go hang. So a continuing UK dependence upon trade with EU is dangerous, That trade accounts for just 15%GDP but Brussels's and ECJ laws stymies ALL UK trading with rest of world. Best to brexit and not be dragged under by  a sinking euro-ship. 

CC threatens southern europe with drought, heat stress and diseases ( eg malaria etc) leading to northward migration. UK has the misfortune to speak english the global common language and would be a prime country of choice for those displaced by cc. UK must be able to realise the advantages, in a survival situation, of being an island and to control its borders  rigorously against climate migrants. Remaining under the control of Brussels will become an existantial threat so brexiting now is wise.

Peter

Peter

[PeterC]

10 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Roger,

I suspect we are much of an age, so you will remember travel before Schengen.   Freedom to roam Europe is one that the young will lose, not be given.

I'm no economist, but if the German banks must charge investors a fee for holding their money, doesn't that show a socety replete with cash and investment?     Why is that bad?   Again, you can probably remember inflation in the UK at 10 or even 20%, with interets rates to match, which really impoverishes people, and ruins business.

It's a poor analogy, but we know a Club that a lot of members fled a little while ago, to 'migrate' here.   I don't know how many now go back there, and enjoy the benefits of both, but I hope they will wish to improve the situation at either end, not sit in one camp and throw stones.

JOhn

Read Stiglitz John and you will see why germans are wealthy and the economies of greece etc  destroyed. Greece has lost a high percentage of its medics and other professionals to schengen and the euro. The euro is a disaster zone.   Peter

[JohnD]

No argument about the Euro, Peter, to impose a single currency wholly divergent economies was never going to work.   But the Euro and Schengen are not the same.

John

[richy_rich]

Seems a bit harsh to blame all of Greece's problems on the EU, they were actually desperate to join precisely because their economy was in such as state they hoped it might stabilise things.  They tried really hard for a long time to just about meet the minimum criteria for entry and I think it's fair to say that once they had joined and the financial crisis hit - the EU financial policies didn't really give them much room for manoeuvre. 

This *could* have been a very good argument for leaving the EU if the UK had had the Euro as a currency.

I actually reckon if we zoom out a bit brexit itself will be judged historically as one of the after effects of the financial crisis.

1 hour ago, PeterC said:

UK must be able to realise the advantages, in a survival situation, of being an island and to control its borders  rigorously against climate migrants.

As an avid fan of zombie films, I can assure you that this strategy never ends well

[PaulAA]

53 minutes ago, richy_rich said:

Seems a bit harsh to blame all of Greece's problems on the EU

But not harsh to lay blame for a substantial portion of Greece's problems on Goldman Sachs' disgraceful misrepresentation of their readiness to join the Euro.

[TR5tar]

Ohhh, I've tried extremely hard to keep out of discussions on this subject here on Sideways, because although I appreciate that we have many reasonable people here, I think there's always the risk of things becoming heated and of friendships soured. Alan (Oldtuckunder) and I had some frank, but always courteous, exchanges on the subject, over in that other place. I'm glad we had the chance to share our views on the matter with each other. 

I was on the fence when it was announced that there would be a referendum, and although I studied PPE almost 30 years before, I confess that I was not up to date on the mechanics of the EU, so I took time to try to understand it better.  Apart from feeling that it's needlessly complex, in terms of how the Parliament, the Council, the Commission, and the Party System, hangs together, looking at it all made me realise again my negative feelings about centralised government. Empires collapse from trying to control too many people over vast areas, and there's no reason that I can see why the EU should succeed where others have failed. We might all wish for the world of Lennon's "Imagine there's no countries", but borders come into existence for a purpose.

When I talk with people who are vehemently in favour of remaining, both young and old, I'm struck that almost none have a good idea of the workings of the EU, and yet they hold it up as something we cannot possibly live without. To be fair, the same people might not have much idea of the British parliamentary system, but they usually know the different parties and can name the leaders and a few ministers. I just come away with the feeling that there are many (not in here of course) that feel that the EU is this great nanny state that will protect and save everyone who is part of it.  Let's be generous here and say that at the very least, the EU is benign. Quite possibly it is, but can we really be sure it will continue to be so, when we are already seeing the rise of extremism across Europe and perhaps one day it will be those extremes that hold power in the EU.    

I'm against large, centralised government in general because I feel that people who are governed should have a direct a route as possible to those that govern. And that those who govern us should have a reasonable understanding of the issues that those that they govern face.  The more distant that those who govern are in terms of geography, culture, and socio-ecomonic position, the less able they are to understand the feelings of those that they govern. 

Another thing that often strikes me when I talk with people about Brexit is that most remainers are focused on money, and in particular what they might lose financially by leaving. This, of course, is a perfectly understandable fear. I have a business myself which might well suffer because of Brexit, I just don't know. Equally, it might do better. On the flip side, the usual concern of leavers is mass immigration and fear of losing their culture. That, in my view, is also a genuine fear, and one that many politicians have failed to appreciate. I'll never forget an interview with a Labour MP some years ago who when asked about peoples fears over immigration said that those who felt that way were foolish and should appreciate the benefits of a multi-cultural society. Now, you might think that there are benefits to a multi-cultural society, no doubt there are, but the point is that her attitude lacked an understanding of how others might view things. That utter dismissal of people's fears is one of the things that led us here.

Perhaps it is small wonder that if remainers typically focus on the financial impact of Brexit, both for the country and personally, and leavers typically focus on a fear of cultural change, the two sides will never come together. In terms of constituencies the big wins for Remain were in London and in Scotland. Take those two areas out and I'd guess it might well have been 65 %/ 35% in favour of leave. I think it's worth thinking about why areas voted as they did and what it says about the interests of the people in those areas in terms of what is important to them.     

As for the latest "tactic" of the government, well, I can understand the upset, but it seems ironic to me when people shout "anti-democratic", while at the same time not accepting the result of the referendum and moving on to leave. On the ballot paper we were asked a simple question and given two options, A. Remain a member of the European Union, B. Leave the European Union.  There was no mention of deals. The vote was in favour of leaving 17.4m (52%) to 16.1m (48%). It's estimated that 64% of constituencies voted to leave, so nearly two thirds. Before the referendum it was made clear that leaving meant leaving the single market and the customs union. It was also made clear that the government would respect the vote.

None of us can know for sure what the impact will be if / when we leave the EU, it's all best guesses, but what I do know for certain is that nothing said in this thread will change anyone's view now. Everyone is entrenched. Best talk about cars instead   

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by TR5tar

[PeterC]

Boris' strategy https://theconversation.com/suspending-parliament-could-be-the-act-of-a-credible-madman-or-master-bluffer-top-game-theorist-on-boris-johnson-122489

L:ets hope he outfoxes Brussels, though I doubt they really care being so far removed from national electorates.

Peter

 

[2.5piman]

Hello TR5Star,

"  Let's be generous here and say that at the very least, the EU is benign "

 Let us be realistic, the E.U. is anything but begnign and and no concern for the citizens of it's member states.

An intersting book is Varoufakis's book of his time as finance minister of Greece, and his battles with the E.U. and the various banks with regard to the Greek debt. There were various dubious methods carried out just so Greece would seem to be paying the debts to the E.U. banks  Had these debts not been repaid on schedule it would have left French and German banks in dire straits. What is even more indicartive of the E.U.'s  lack of consideration that they stressed that the debts must be paid on time even if it meant that Greece's payments of pensions and social service were suspended. The Greek finances were that extreme

Varoufakis put forward a  comprehensive plan that would enable Greece to expand it's very suppressed economy by reforming the  way that tax evasion was tackled and removed a lot of the austerity measures the E.U. demanded and outlined how it could both service the debt and progress back to an increase in GDP. The simple answer was a no. Keep receiving the bailout money which the was simply used to repay the debt.

He was against Grexit, which at one time looked likely, and was also against Brexit, but only because he thought that with the U.K.'s help the very necessary reforms of the  E.U. could be attempted. On this I feel he was very optimistic as in reality the E.U. is an unstopable leviathon.

Alec