Oil pressure

[thebrookster]

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

Looking at that I'd be worried that the end float has taken the cylinder bores out a bit, have you a bore gauge? 

That's my concern as well, particularly when Jacob mentions #6 being only 50psi on the compression test.

In your shoes now Jacob, I would consider asking around the club's/Facebook groups etc for a second engine that is a runner. Something someone has whipped out in order to fit a tuned unit for example. Slap it in and enjoy for the season, and take the time to fully evaluate this engine and rebuild/replace as needed, when funding allows?

Phil

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Oh crap.

Thrust washers go with the slots facing the crank either side of the rear main.

Bearings look like they've taken a fair bit of wear. Almost certainly down to the low oil pressure.

I would suspect that the cam is probably OK. On that front timing it with the symetrical Triumph camshafts is relatively straightforward without the timing marks on the sprockets. Ideally you want a degree wheel and a dial gauge but you can get it pretty much bang on using the method set out in the workshop manual with just feeler gauges. Just means fitting the head first.

[flatter4]

Jacob, I'm looking on my phone, so difficult to judge pics.  Will look later on full screen.

Yes dirt.  Yes some wear.  50 psi on No.6 needs to be understood.  Could be valve seating.  Loose oil suction pipe is the one that worries me most.  This could be the cause of your oil pressure fluctuation.  Pump will suck air if it possibly can, and maybe when hot the pump was pulling air, noted as low oil pressure at idle.

However it will also have pulled air at speed, air in oil systems is bad news.

For a budget rebuild you might get away with polishing crank journals and new bearings?

....but need to understand the 50 psi

 

[flatter4]

...and as escadrille says, cam timing is not a problem, especially as it's a symmetric one.

Follow advice on here and ask questions.  Need to find an accurate tdc, and as advised, use a timing wheel (easy to print one if you want to save a few quid).

Cheers, Will.

[Nick Jones]

Oh. Bollocks….. 

Thrust washers need to have the softer, babbit-faced side (with the two vertical oil grooves) facing the crankshaft (the moving surface).  As you have discovered.  It is scarily easy to get it wrong.  If you get the back one wrong it becomes obvious really quickly as it takes the clutch load. The front one is more subtle…..

I’d be surprised if 0.8mm end-float had caused a bore/piston problem. The recessed valve (no inserts I assume?) sounds like your compression problem on 6. The thrust washer was caught before it fell out so the block should be ok. The crank is going to need measuring properly and may have to be ground again. You are going to need bearing shells.  You are also going need thrust washers - maybe extra-thick ones. Consider getting some solid phosphor bronze ones from Scott Helms at Custom Thrust Washers.

It’ll all need a damn good clean, especially the oil-ways.

And whatever the head needs….

Bah…..

 

[Speedysix]

3 hours ago, RedRooster said:

Looking at that I'd be worried that the end float has taken the cylinder bores out a bit, have you a bore gauge? 

I don't have a bore gauge but would be good to double check for sanity sake, however surely that much endfloat wouldn't effect it, should be enough movement on the small end in the piston. But as always, best to double check!

[Speedysix]

2 hours ago, thebrookster said:

That's my concern as well, particularly when Jacob mentions #6 being only 50psi on the compression test.

In your shoes now Jacob, I would consider asking around the club's/Facebook groups etc for a second engine that is a runner. Something someone has whipped out in order to fit a tuned unit for example. Slap it in and enjoy for the season, and take the time to fully evaluate this engine and rebuild/replace as needed, when funding allows?

Phil

I did think about that phil, it's a good shout too. I think I'm just going to leave it on the side for now, I've got a few other bits I'd like to do to the car whilst it's in this state. Mind you it would be nice to pop a 2.5 in and see the difference! I think for the time being, it's going to be do what I can when I can annoyingly.

[Speedysix]

2 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Oh crap.

Thrust washers go with the slots facing the crank either side of the rear main.

Bearings look like they've taken a fair bit of wear. Almost certainly down to the low oil pressure.

I would suspect that the cam is probably OK. On that front timing it with the symetrical Triumph camshafts is relatively straightforward without the timing marks on the sprockets. Ideally you want a degree wheel and a dial gauge but you can get it pretty much bang on using the method set out in the workshop manual with just feeler gauges. Just means fitting the head first.

 

1 hour ago, flatter4 said:

Jacob, I'm looking on my phone, so difficult to judge pics.  Will look later on full screen.

Yes dirt.  Yes some wear.  50 psi on No.6 needs to be understood.  Could be valve seating.  Loose oil suction pipe is the one that worries me most.  This could be the cause of your oil pressure fluctuation.  Pump will suck air if it possibly can, and maybe when hot the pump was pulling air, noted as low oil pressure at idle.

However it will also have pulled air at speed, air in oil systems is bad news.

For a budget rebuild you might get away with polishing crank journals and new bearings?

....but need to understand the 50 psi

 

 

1 hour ago, flatter4 said:

...and as escadrille says, cam timing is not a problem, especially as it's a symmetric one.

Follow advice on here and ask questions.  Need to find an accurate tdc, and as advised, use a timing wheel (easy to print one if you want to save a few quid).

Cheers, Will.

Thanks guys, yes I do have the timing wheel and setup etc but I couldn't find any figures for the standard cams I.e how many degrees after tdc etc as they're timed in with the dot to dot on the wheels. Anyway I doubt I'd want to use that cam anyway as seeing as I'm in for a full rebuild, might as well splurge on a updated cam.

As for the oil pump I need to get the feeler gauges in it and check it, I cant believe that thing worked it's way loose! But yes could be as you say air, very possible. I need to pull the crank and inspect it properly. The thrust washer really are into it so I need to have a proper look on the bench tomorrow.

[Speedysix]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Oh. Bollocks….. 

Thrust washers need to have the softer, babbit-faced side (with the two vertical oil grooves) facing the crankshaft (the moving surface).  As you have discovered.  It is scarily easy to get it wrong.  If you get the back one wrong it becomes obvious really quickly as it takes the clutch load. The front one is more subtle…..

I’d be surprised if 0.8mm end-float had caused a bore/piston problem. The recessed valve (no inserts I assume?) sounds like your compression problem on 6. The thrust washer was caught before it fell out so the block should be ok. The crank is going to need measuring properly and may have to be ground again. You are going to need bearing shells.  You are also going need thrust washers - maybe extra-thick ones. Consider getting some solid phosphor bronze ones from Scott Helms at Custom Thrust Washers.

It’ll all need a damn good clean, especially the oil-ways.

And whatever the head needs….

Bah…..

 

My thoughts exactly

That's certainly one mistake I'll never make again! Cant believe somthing so simple caused this much of an issue, but just goes to show you really can't be sloppy or hasty with engine building!

I agree, there should be enough movement on the small end to compensate for this, however I would like to try and find a bore micrometer to 100% verify this. Just for sanity sake. 

As for no6 yes standard seats and I just leak checked it with some water, straight out the exhaust port. The seat does look receded, presumably as it hasn't had any lead to cushion it from the combustion. It certainly feels much lower than all the others. Head issues I can sort much easier than block issues so I'm not too worried. I'd like to rework it anyway if I'm dropping a hotter cam in.

Yes I'm really glad I didn't take that journey in it now. And good thing I didn't think about doing RBRR this year. There is a considerable lip on the crank face where the thrust washer has eaten into it, it looks quite thin as it is and maybe scrap? It needs to come out and onto the bench for an inspection. I lost the will in the garage today, 32 degrees, hands covered in oil and grime, and a trashed engine. I had lost the will a little.

Anyway I'll try and pull the crank tomorrow and get some pictures and measurements of the journals and that thrust face lip. Thanks again for everyone for all your help so far! 

[Nick Jones]

Have both 2.0 and 2.5 cranks here if you get stuck. They will need at least a polish….

2.5 would involve buying more pistons and possibly a head change if it’s one of the thinner heads that you have now? Domed pistons or flat at present?

[Martin]

I feel your pain.
Went through an engine failure short after an engine rebuild on my GT6 some years ago. I learned that besides what has to be repaired, spend a lot of attention regarding the cleaning of the engine. 
 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

16 hours ago, Speedysix said:

Thanks guys, yes I do have the timing wheel and setup etc but I couldn't find any figures for the standard cams I.e how many degrees after tdc etc as they're timed in with the dot to dot on the wheels. Anyway I doubt I'd want to use that cam anyway as seeing as I'm in for a full rebuild, might as well splurge on a updated cam.

There are quite a few out there. I look forward to that discussion

Meanwhile copy of the relevant pages from the original workshop manual regarding timing symetrical profile cams.

[TimBancroft]

Jacob, very sorry to read this, but well done for doing the right thing and pulling the engine...that trip westwards would have been a lot pricer.

Think about the cam you go for, TR5/early 6 always seems the right option..new followers as well. James Shackford will be a good source. Whilst at it, think about having the crank, flywheel etc balanced. James Cooper has found a very good engine balancer in the Bournemouth, are you still in Basingstoke? 

Good luck with everything, Triumph cars eh!

[Speedysix]

On 6/16/2023 at 9:36 AM, Nick Jones said:

Have both 2.0 and 2.5 cranks here if you get stuck. They will need at least a polish….

2.5 would involve buying more pistons and possibly a head change if it’s one of the thinner heads that you have now? Domed pistons or flat at present?

Thanks Nick, I think I might have to take you up on the 2.0, it's really eaten into it, still yet to measure how deep and work oit how big of a thrust it would requite but I'd immagine it would be too big even for the oversize ones available! I have flat tops, thr block and head are correct mk2 gt6 stamped ones. I checked thr head the other day, definitely unleaded seats needed.

[Speedysix]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:10 PM, Martin said:

I feel your pain.
Went through an engine failure short after an engine rebuild on my GT6 some years ago. I learned that besides what has to be repaired, spend a lot of attention regarding the cleaning of the engine. 
 

Yes after this utter cock up I really will be tripple checking everything before it goes together. Glad to know I'm not alone out there 

[Speedysix]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:00 PM, Escadrille Ecosse said:

There are quite a few out there. I look forward to that discussion

Meanwhile copy of the relevant pages from the original workshop manual regarding timing symetrical profile cams.

I stand corrected, thanks for that one! I can't believe I missed that, I too own this book! Maybe I need to lay off thr doom bar whilst engine building

[Speedysix]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:47 AM, TimBancroft said:

Jacob, very sorry to read this, but well done for doing the right thing and pulling the engine...that trip westwards would have been a lot pricer.

Think about the cam you go for, TR5/early 6 always seems the right option..new followers as well. James Shackford will be a good source. Whilst at it, think about having the crank, flywheel etc balanced. James Cooper has found a very good engine balancer in the Bournemouth, are you still in Basingstoke? 

Good luck with everything, Triumph cars eh!

Thanks Tim, yes I'm too glad. It nearly ended up going to le mans classic this week, I can't immagine I'd be too happy with total engine destruction somewhere in the middle of France!

Yes I will be clogging up the forum with posts about cams and head flowing etc! After reading a bit I think that's what the general trend was, tr5- early tr6. Is this what you run? Do they behave on SU's? I believe you had the hs6 conversion on yours too? 

Yes still in Basingstoke! That's really helpful thank you, I'll have a look into it. I might go for one of his flywheels too perhaps..

I think you'll have to count me out of RBRR for this year! But I think I'll be able to take on the challenge next year!

[Nick Jones]

6 minutes ago, Speedysix said:

Thanks Nick, I think I might have to take you up on the 2.0, it's really eaten into it, still yet to measure how deep and work oit how big of a thrust it would requite but I'd immagine it would be too big even for the oversize ones available!

This option remains open. However another option is the solid PB thrust washers from Scott Helms

https://customthrustwashers.com/

If the rest of the crank journals have survived well enough to avoid re-grinding, getting the thrust faces ground and a pair of PB washers to match might still be the most economical solution.  IIRC the crank I have is ground .010” undersize and was considered “probably ok with a polish-up rather than a full grind” by the machine shop. It looks fairly ugly though.

The importance of cleaning, especially the oil passages, really cannot be overstated. I always remove all the gallery plugs and the oil pump drive bush to make absolutely sure. Yes, it is a ball-ache…. But fully worth while IMO.

[JohnD]

How did they make that long oil gallery in the block!   To clear mine when rebuilding a new (to me) engine I bought a long (very long!) drill, and the inside of an untreated gallery is always  as rough as rough.   It's as if it was cast with a sand core, when I imagined it was drilled! Taking all the nibs and spikes out has to be good!

John

[John I]

18 minutes ago, JohnD said:

How did they make that long oil gallery in the block!   To clear mine when rebuilding a new (to me) engine I bought a long (very long!) drill, and the inside of an untreated gallery is always  as rough as rough.   It's as if it was cast with a sand core, when I imagined it was drilled! Taking all the nibs and spikes out has to be good!

John

Can you recall what diameter you used John and did you have a go from both ends?

[TimBancroft]

Jacob,

My TR6 is still on Lucas Pi, presently I am going through the trials and tribulations of changing the plumbing to make it E10 compatiable...real fun..not!

James S does some lovely Flywheels, however they have an integral ring gear, most others, for example Bastruk one has to shrink a std ring gear onto the wheel, seems better to me...but then again considering the mileage we do with these things, maybe integral is ok.

RBRR is 06/10/23 to 08/10/23 and will then be run early October 2025. CT will be running its 10CR event next year, not sure on the format of that at the moment.

Good luck with the engine.

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, John I said:

Can you recall what diameter you used John and did you have a go from both ends?

From memory, I'm away at Le Mans right now, it was 11mm and 80mm long.  

I made up a 'special tool' from a big bolt and lengths of pipe to pull out the dizzie bush, so that I could get right past that, but still I went from both ends.

[Nick Jones]

IMO, the factory flywheel fro the GT6 and Vitesse is perfectly good for a road car as they are already pretty light (14kg?). Saloons are very much chunkier (up to 22kg IIRC)and possibly TRs too.

I would stick with the std flywheel and spend the (considerable) money saved elsewhere.

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, John I said:

Can you recall what diameter you used John and did you have a go from both ends?

Take a look at the oiling thread by Steve Smith, which is pinned towards the top of this section. Lots of useful stuff in there. 
I chose not to take that route and have a single external booster feed (octopus lite) to the front of the oil gallery to make it a ring main 

[John I]

1 minute ago, JohnD said:

From memory, I'm away at Le Mans right now, it was 11mm and 80mm long.  

I made up a 'special tool' from a big bolt and lengths of pipe to pull out the dizzie bush, so that I could get right past that, but still I went from both ends.

Thanks, good staring point. Not looking forward to doing it but if it needs doing let’s do it right.

Hope Le Mans is proving to be fun and not to taxing.