May's Brexit Plan

[David Butterworth]

Hi John.

Sorry not to have come back earlier, other things happening in my life now take priority. If you go to the Freight Transport Association (FTA) site, type in 10 ways to make customs border work after Brexit, go to no 7. After, you can look up The Government Policy Paper for Future Customs Arrangements.

As for driving rules in the EU, then you can find them here....gov.uk/drivers-hours/driving-under-both-eu-and-gb-domestic-rules   The driving hours you quote are the basic ones but the permeation's are a bit of a minefield, I'm glad I'm out of it. It is one of the main reason's why there's a shortage of drivers and that's the same in the EU

Dave

[David Butterworth]

12 hours ago, Sprint95m said:

Not so.

There are two enormous container ships under construction in Denmark to carry container freight from Eire directly to Europe.
The loser in this is the British haulage industry.

 

Ian.

Ian, we are losers now. The majority of truck movement now is by EU hauliers, next time you're in Dover Port, look at the countries those trucks are coming from compared with how many UK trucks are moving.

Regarding those ship's that are being built, you say they are container ship, is that correct or are they RoRo? If container I can't see anything less than a minimum of 10 hrs time to turn one around, I stand to be corrected on that,  so that's on top of the sailing time. RoRo will still take 2/3hrs. I think if those are containers they're going to take more than 3days to leave a company and arrive at the customer.

Dave

[Chris W]

6 hours ago, JohnD said:

Ireland, and Europe, take the view that, however concerned they are about the effect of a hard Irish border, it is the UK's policy that has caused it and the UK's repsonsibilty to deal with it.

JOhn

Yes, that has been their negotiating position throughout the last 2.5 years because it was handy for forcing the UK to stay in a Customs Union, in order to get the Transition Period agreed.  You can bet if the UK leaves on 29th of March without a deal, the issue will be resolved faster than you can say Paddy McGinty's Goat.  Why, because UK and Ireland are committed not to have border infrastructure and the EU has stated that it will not force Ireland to do so.

On R4 the other day, Steve Baker stated that a draft Treaty covering this matter has already been written by EU/UK and is sitting there waiting, if needed.  Of course he may be lying, he is a politician, after all and a member of the ERG to boot but he wasn't 'called out' on it.

At the end of the day, the amount of trade across the border is miniscule, about 0.12% of total EU trade.  My guess is that the EU will 'write off' this and both the UK and EU will focus on their respective sea borders to provide the EU with the market integrity it wants.

[Scooter]

On 11/24/2018 at 12:13 PM, Bumblebee said:

The EU is undemocratic, autocratic and unaccountable in its current form.

 

Agree 100%

It may speak of benign rule by 'Technocrats', but its still rule by the unelected and unnacountable

And as for their legal system!

[Scooter]

On 12/20/2018 at 9:52 AM, Sprint95m said:

Not so.

There are two enormous container ships under construction in Denmark to carry container freight from Eire directly to Europe.
The loser in this is the British haulage industry.

 

Ian.

 

 

Its another EU fantasy totally devoid of reality

Ships take 4 days to get to Europe, not the day or so a truck can manage

 

 

[Scooter]

On 12/19/2018 at 12:32 PM, JohnD said:

Here's a new and frightening statistic.     The "No-deal" option so favoured by Rees-Mogg's ERG, and  increasingly likely to happen, could cause Kent to become gridlocked, despite the Minister for Defence allocating 3500 troops to assist with lorry parking.     

Many of those lorries will be European, I have no idea how many have UK drivers, but Dover handled 2.7 MILLION trucks in 2017.    Say a third, it's a guess, but the UK is 60,000 short of the HGV drivers it needs, and if only a third had UK drivers that's a million trips.    Drivers hours are a complex matter, but basically they must not do more than a five day week - good!    Each driver who crosses the Channel must take about a day each way (again, Im guessing, correct me someone in logistics), but that means that they cannot do more than five trips in a fortnight, or 130 trips a year.   Which brings me back to the fearful statistic.   

One million trips at 130 per year for each, requires nearly 8000 drivers.   How many permits have been allocated in the event of a No-Deal crash out, by the community to drive in Europe?   One thousand.  ONE THOUSAND!   They couldn't keep Waitrose's in sun-dried tomatoes.

If our Government agreed to that, then they are even more incompetent than I imagined.

John

 

 

There are so many factual errors in your post, I don't know where to start

.

[PaulAA]

6 hours ago, Scooter said:

 

 

There are so many factual errors in your post, I don't know where to start

.

Not so.  The facts are correct and John makes clear where he is speculating. If you have data that disproves either his statistics or assumptions, please post.

[PaulAA]

6 hours ago, Scooter said:

 

Agree 100%

It may speak of benign rule by 'Technocrats', but its still rule by the unelected and unnacountable

And as for their legal system!

Out of interest why do you define the EU as being undemocratic? Relative to its authority and scope, how is it less democratic than, say, the UK?

[JohnD]

9 hours ago, Scooter said:

 

 

There are so many factual errors in your post, I don't know where to start

.

You could start by saying WHICH facts are untrue.

Here's another fact which you may find uncomfortable.     Of those eligable to vote in the UK, between 60 and 66% do so in general elections.     Of the same electorate, exactly the same,  no more than 38% have ever bothered to vote in elections to the EU Parliament.    In 1999 it was only 24%.       That only a third of electors can be arsed to take part in democracy does not invalidate that democracy, although it does open the door for idiots like Farage.   

This may be compared to the average for the EU, which has declined from 62% to only 43% between 1979 and 2014. 

John

Edited December 27, 2018 by JohnD

[Nick Jones]

I think I’ve already commented on British “democracy”.

First past the post..... party whips....... party leader (and thus PM) chosen by a few party faithful or union block votes......

 

[JohnD]

I won't bore you with Churchilll's bon mot on 'democracy', but what would you put in place of what we have?

John

[Scooter]

On 11/24/2018 at 11:37 AM, JohnD said:

the most ambitious and significant alliance since the formation of the United States of America.   

Nonsense! We’ve been here before it was called the Soviet Union

 

 

[Scooter]

33 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I think I’ve already commented on British “democracy”.

First past the post..... party whips....... party leader (and thus PM) chosen by a few party faithful or union block votes......

 

We get a choice, even if flawed, but who elected the rulers in Brussels?

and first past the post has stopped the far left avd far right gaining any meaningful traction in Britain, unlike many EUropean countries

[JohnD]

 

Re EU vs. CCCP

Come on scooter, lets have some arguments - this is a debate, not a name calling competition.

J.

Edited December 27, 2018 by JohnD

[Scooter]

49 minutes ago, JohnD said:

You could start by saying WHICH facts are untrue.

Here's another fact which you may find uncomfortable.     Of those eligable to vote in the UK, between 60 and 66% do so in general elections.     Of the same electorate, exactly the same,  no more than 38% have ever bothered to vote in elections to the EU Parliament.    In 1999 it was only 24%.       That only a third of electors can be arsed to take part in democracy does not invalidate that democracy, although it does open the door for idiots like Farage.   

This may be compared to the average for the EU, which has declined from 62% to only 43% between 1979 and 2014. 

John

 

 

Its called democracy.... it’s been good enough for hundredds of years until the public voted the ‘wrong’ way.

perhaps all future general elections should be rerun endlessly until the ‘right’ vote is delivered?

[Scooter]

1 minute ago, JohnD said:

 

Re EU vs. CCCP

Come on scooter, lets have some arguments - this is a debate, not a name calling competition.

J.

That’s a leading Russian commentator who lived with the Soviet Union doubt the commentating avd arguing.

the EU is a cargo cult 

[JohnD]

Scooter, you are clearly better informed than the rest of us, so much better that you have no need to identify this "leading Russian commentator".  Or to tell us what they said.

And Comment is Free, but Facts are Sacred.       Give us some facts to bolster your argument.

John

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

I won't bore you with Churchilll's bon mot on 'democracy', but what would you put in place of what we have?

John

At the moment a return to monarchy or even a military coupe could be an improvement!

[oldtuckunder]

1 hour ago, Scooter said:

Its called democracy.... it’s been good enough for hundredds of years until the public voted the ‘wrong’ way.

I think if you do a brief check you will find that in our democratic system we have only just reached the first hundred years when some women and all men could vote, and we are still a decade away from reaching a hundred years where finally all women could vote. So in fact the ability of man to fly is far more proven than our current model of democracy. 

[Scooter]

45 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said:

I think if you do a brief check you will find that in our democratic system we have only just reached the first hundred years when some women and all men could vote, and we are still a decade away from reaching a hundred years where finally all women could vote. So in fact the ability of man to fly is far more proven than our current model of democracy. 

 

 

Whereas the concept of the ordinary man in the street having a vote is a new and novel concept for much of the continent that still clung to the rule of Kings and facist dictators in the recent past.

Greece, Portugal, Span, Italy, Germany, Romania - all fascist dictatorships in not so distant memory

Meanwhile, the Magma Carta is a mystery to Europeans who are still happy to have to prove their innocence rather than our ancient presumption of innocence.

 

 

Give it 100 years after the demise of the last European fascist Dictatorship, and I just might start trusting them. 

But looking at the vast inroads AfD are making in Germany, I think the Hugo Boss look is going to see a renaissance in EUtopia in my lifetime

[zetecspit]

I believe the big problem is the perceived lack of democracy within the EU.

Now, I don't know, nor do I wish to spend however long it may take (I suspect a very long time) to unravel how true that is. But it is that sort of thing that empowers the whole Brexit campaign and the remainers do little to counter those accusations. Maybe it is too buried in bureaucracy? Again, fuel for Brexiteers. 

No, to make real progress the Remainers need to engage the electorate, not "speak" to them like they are knuckle draggers.

[richy_rich]

58 minutes ago, Scooter said:

Meanwhile, the Magma Carta is a mystery to Europeans who are still happy to have to prove their innocence rather than our ancient presumption of innocence.

Strange, they had a copy of the "Magma Carta" on display in the EU Court of Justice when I worked there  Innocent until proven guilty is written into the UN Declaration of Human Rights and also the Council of Europe's Convention for the Protection of Human rights, as every member country of the EU is a member of the Council of Europe (separate thing, but often confused - the UK will still be a member after leaving the EU, for example) it's a binding condition of membership to both and just in case it's restated in EU law as well.

[PaulAA]

3 hours ago, Scooter said:

That’s a leading Russian commentator who lived with the Soviet Union doubt the commentating avd arguing.

the EU is a cargo cult 

A 'leading Russian commentator'... that's your only supporting argument?  By the way, you might like to look a little further into Vladimir Bukovsky.

But to take his lead, how different do you think the British style of democracy is?  You vote for MPs, but, just like the Council of Ministers, you don't vote for members of the Cabinet.  You don't have a direct vote for the PM.  You have no democratic influence on the upper chamber or on the Civil Service or the judiciary, let alone the final approval of law by an hereditary monarch.  Really, when it comes to bellyaching about a lack of democracy, look at the UK's own shining example.

Are you able to furnish any factual basis for your assertions?  You have posted eight times today with barely a single discernable fact in any of them.

 

1 hour ago, Scooter said:

... the Magma Carta...

A document cast in stone, eh?  You may be unaware that the concept of habeas corpus is fundamental to the EU and its member state.

Oh, and you do understand that AfD is anti-EU, don't you? 

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

At the moment a return to monarchy or even a military coupe could be an improvement!

Bit like this?

[PaulAA]

1 minute ago, JohnD said:

Bit like this?

Isn't that more of a military landaulet, John?  I think a military coupe would be more like this: