Sideways into the future.

[GT6MK3]

G'Day,

 

With Sideways up and running again, it's a good time for us to look at what we can do to ensure it stays running, and what we could do to make it even better.

 

The recent week of downtime for Sideways was caused when the previous host moved the site to a new server that didn't have the resources the forum engine needed, and then didn't answer Dave's support requests to help get it running.  To fix it, we moved to a new host, one with a much better software base, and guaranteed support.  The new host has lots of advantages, and gives us lots of opportunities.

 

Our new hosting has 15GB of space and 300GB of transfer pcm.  Overhead isn't an issue.  We have 15GB to host all the pictures and files we need.

 

My brief from Dave is to figure out where we go from here, and implement it.  

 

Accordingly, I'm looking for your input..

 

Until now, we've all enjoyed the benefits of Dave's generosity in hosting and administering Sideways.

 

The engine Sideways currently runs on is called E-blah.  E-blah used to be a great bit of well supported free software, but the guy who wrote it has moved onto other things, support is now almost non-existant, and there are no security updates being released.  In short, it's now virtually unsupported, and if we keep using it, we'll eventually go dark for good. Spam, hacks, or obsolescence will eventually strike.

 

It's time to find an alternative, plan a move, and execute it well.

 

There are only two forum engines which advertise forum converters from E-blah.  Both have a major downside, they do not convert and include local attachments (pictures etc hosted at Sideways.)

 

The first is SMF.  SMF is a well supported, community written piece of free software.  It's arguably the best of the current free forum software offerings.  It's got a number of immature converters for the various E-blah releases, none of which work any where near perfectly.  The SMF community have recently had a massive political bust up.  Many of the supporting contributors have recently been disenfranchised, including all the converter writers.  As a result, there's almost no support for the converters at present.  That may change, but right now, the only path to a free software platform would be if we have software developers available in our community to help with the conversion.

 

The second option is Invision's IPB.  IPB's best of breed for forum software.  It works, it's got a proven converter from E-blah, and it has fantastic support.  But it's not free, or even cheap.  The modules that would suit Sideways really well would cost US$250 to buy, and then US$90 per annum in licensing costs.  For another US$120 upfront, they'd do a guaranteed conversion from E-blah.  For that, we'd get licensing and support for the forum, a gallery to self host pictures, a 5 user chat box, and a linkable blog structure.  Someone would have to pay for all that though.  Invision have lots of options for voluntary paid subscriptions.

 

So we have options.

 

Do nothing.  Wait for e-blah to collapse, smile and find somewhere else to meet.

 

Use SMF. Band our nerds together and write a working converter.  Then put together a mod team to do some work and hook back in all the unconverted local attachments.  Probably doable within 4 weeks.

 

Use IPB.  Find volunteers willing to put up US$250, maybe another US$120 for the conversion (In case I/we can't make it work) and then raise at least US$90 per annum through voluntary forum memberships.  Then put together a mod team to do some work and hook back in all the unconverted local attachments.  Probably doable within 4 weeks.

 

Either way, I'm happy to commit to covering the continuing hosting and URL costs for the next 18 months, or until Dave want's me to leave.  Dave's covered them long enough. Maybe ongoing we can look at voluntary forum memberships covering them too.

 

 

So.  Where do you think we should go from here?  

 

I'm not advocating reaching into anyone's pockets.  I'm just trying to give everyone a chance to decide our future.  Dave's given us this wonderful resource.  Let's make sure we keep it.

 

Cheers

 

Craig

[James]

Craig,

 

 

I looked in to this too— no decent eBlah convertors.

 

What I might suggest is that we archive the current eBlah site and start again with something decent. The forum can still be searched, attachments will still exist— we just won't use it.

 

 

James

[mattius]

There is another option, which is a bit more labour intensive but could actually be better.

 

PhpBB is an open source free forum software, i've used it in the past and it is very robust.

 

Unfortunatly there is no direct converter, however, if you convert to ipb then convert ipb to phpbb it will work.

 

Im all up for chipping in for forum software but i preffer opensource options as there is no hidden agenda and features the users actually want.

 

With the amount of spam we are recieving at the moment, it is time to change. Also i hate perl, its such a useless language which has so many limitations, php is a much more robust language.

[JohnD]

The Totally Triumph Net recently did exactly what you have done, Craig, went to a new server AND new software.

but it left the old board as an archive: http://www.totallytriumph.net/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

 

while starting the new one from scratch: http://totallytriumph.net/TriumphCarForums/index.php

 

There might be a few long running threda sthat might be disrupted - "What I did to my car this week" for instance  - but could ther not be a 'sticky' hotlink to the old thread on the new site, so allow continuity?

 

This would open up the whole field of modern Board Software for us to consider.

 

JOhn

[Johnc]

Hi All

I post infrequently, but look/ read the forum most days. The forum has indirectly given me the support I needed to carry out "sideways" conversions to my Herald which I would otherwise not been able to have done. I for one would be happy to pay a subscription if it would help the site to survive. I would love to be able to help with the website stuff but I'm only a simple landscaper and couldn't even pretend to understand it. Long live sideways.

 

John C

[Nick B.]

Many forums out there must have similar problems. OIsn't it just a question about time before a decent converter comes along?

 

Anyway, I doubt any kind of subscription would benefit the forum in the long run.

 

If we have to change software I believe that a model where you keep the old eblah in an archive and start over with new threads in a new forum is to be prefered.

 

I know nothing about these matters, but am willing to help on labourintensive simple stuff (I remove old underseal, someone else do the welding  ;D )

 

Cheers

Nick

[Hurricane1500]

IMO

 

archive and start again + add links back to this site

 

[Mother Teresa]

IMO

 

archive and start again + add links back to this site

 

Ditto. I'm the technological village idiot on this one (can't be arsed to keep up), but the above seems a simple straight forward and efficient way forward. I'm happy to fund a financial contribution toward any new set up .

[mark spit]

Double Ditto

Also happy to add into the 'keep it sideways fund'.

Like to be able to add into the 'efi my Spit fund' as well..........

 

Mark

[Mark]

I no very little (nothing) about site hosting, E-blah etc, just click on my bookmarks and 'sideways-technologies.co.uk' magically appears. Used 'Adobe Go live' twenty years ago if thats any use. No, Dave has done a great job getting this site up and running all this time, and me not really knowing how much time and effort must have gone into it. Like the rest of you lads I would be prepared to donate to the cause.

 

Mark

[AlexC]

I am open to both options, voluntary subscription wouldn't be a problem. I love this place and am willing to pay to keep it.

[smithy]

Triple ditto! (If you can safely ditto that much).

[GHR630]

Count me in...for subscription.

 

I think the archive and start over option is best.....

[RustyLogic]

Archive and start again, and I would be happy to contribute to costs via a subscription - keeping the sub optional would allow the site to continue for all that can't / won't subscribe.

[elsieolly]

Hi All

i think that a financial contribution would help the tech side but might limit new members ?

Still happy to put hand in pocket now if needed.

 

What does Craig say about achiving the old and starting again as it sounds simple but might have flaws in execution ?

[Millstone10]

Count me in on a contribution too. The IP thats been posted here cant really be quantified, let alone the humor

[GT6MK3]

What does Craig say about achiving the old and starting again as it sounds simple but might have flaws in execution ?

 

Archiving the old and starting again would be pretty easy.  Lock the threads here, install a new forum engine, put in a link.  

 

The downside?  Everyone has to re-register.  Post counts and reputations disappear.  Google stops referencing the old site. Users have to figure out how to find, link, and reference old threads in order to use them.  

 

In short, it's easy, but it's technically inelegant, and, well, it would be an affront to my OCD.

 

I'd much rather find a more elegant system.

 

I'd like to move to a system that would give us our same structure, our same user database, and all our IP.  I've looked for that magic solution, but I can't find it.  The closest I can go is to do all that, but lose the file attachments.  

 

But...

 

If we do a little of both, we might get the best possible outcome.  Change to an engine that gives us everything but attachments, and also archive a locked version of the "old" Sideways.   Have a team of mods that can edit old posts and can clean up the "dead" attachment links, and re-link them to the old files, in the new format.  Or copy in the files.

 

I'm all for using free software.  PhpBB is pretty good, as good in many ways as SMF.  But sometimes you get what you pay for.  Invision has benefits.  It's the only software with a true converter.  It has other benefits in its SPAM hunt engine, and its guaranteed support.

 

Invision isn't free.  The good bits will cost about US$250 to buy.  Then about $90 a year for the support we currently don't get from e-blah.  

 

Dave's given me the wheel.  That comes with responsibility.  I get to make choices.  For as long as I'm holding the wheel, Sideways will remain free to join, post, search, and read.  Any paid membership will add exactly no benefit other than the satisfaction of having helped kept the site running.  Maybe a "Site Contributor" status.  Nothing more.  

 

I downloaded and installed Phpbb, and SMF onto a test site today.  I also ran up a test of Invision.  I think I've done my due diligence. Invision wins for our needs.

 

So, my plan is to buy an Invision licence.  Then I'll run up a parallel version of Sideways, and invite a couple of folk to do some testing.  If it works, I'll wipe it, re-do the changeover, and we'll go from there.  Parallel forums, hopefully with the new working other than attachments, and the old being there just to find them.

 

It's a plan that has zero risk to the current forum, but every chance of working.  If it doesn't work, I'll wear the cost.

 

If it does, at that point, contributions from those of you who've volunteered to kick in will be gratefully received.  I don't think $250 once and $70-150 a year is beyond this community.

 

I've no problem ensuring my moneys where my mouth is.  

 

C.

 

[mattius]

I admire your willingness to spend that amount on money when not gaurenteed it back, i do wander if invision is worth the extra costs though? i mean peoples subs could go to paying for the hosting so it is a self contained user supported site rather than anyone having to pay for any large bills. That could also create a better community spirit as if you payed for something you look after it.

 

But as you say, your in charge, you make the choices.

 

Does invision have an open api for connecting into the forum database from external scripts? my main concern about some of these paid boards is they close a lot of the code making it very hard to create a larger site around the forum whilst using the existing user database. I have never worked on the admin side of ip.board so i have no idea.

[SpitmkIIICPH]

I have no problem with chipping in to keep the forum running! ;D

 

[JohnD]

Craig,

Your wish that "Sideways will remain free to join, post, search, and read" is one that many will support with contributions, me included.

Please can you find a way for such voluntary subs to be paid, I presume to you?

I'd suggest via PayPal, but having received money transfers that way, the cut that PayPal takes for holding your money for microseconds is shocking.

 

John

[Nick Jones]

Craig,

 

Sounds like you know where we need to go technically.  I would probably have gone for the old site in the background with a new one taking over, but purely on the grounds of technical ease.  If you think the old site can be integrated into a new platform (and obviously you do), then that's got to be the more desirable route for the forum itself.

 

I think John is correct about needing a route for forum users to make a donation.  Dave had one.  I was happy to contribute to that from time to time and would like to do so again.  I share John's reservations about Paypal, but I don't know a better way.  Possibly not alot of help technically but shout if you're wanting help  (I seem to need more sleep than you do though  )

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[GT6MK3]

Matt,

 

20 years of self employment as a small business network specialist have taught me to measure twice, then trust my judgement and cut once.  IPB isn't free, but it comes with a free converter.  It'll give us a safe haven, and if we want to custom build a bigger site later, pretty much everyone offers a port out from IBP.  Then again, the fruit available in IBP's walled garden is pretty attractive, with Gallery, Blogging (including external blog links), and the content converted offering some interesting options for the future.  I've spent a fair bit of time looking at the options, none is perfect, but I honestly believe IPB is the best fit.  Enough people have publicly or privately volunteered to chip in that I'm not too worried about being out of pocket.  And if I am, well, thats life.  I like the place enough that the risk doesn't bother me.

 

John and Nick,

 

IPB has an optional subscription system, with (amongst other things) a pretty good paypal gateway.  Paypal's cut isn't insignificant, but they're pretty much the only game in town.  

 

Rough plan is to offer two types of voluntary paid membership.  Neither will offer any benefit over unpaid membership other than the satisfaction of having helped keep Sideways around.

 

"Bricks and mortar" membership.  US$25.  Once.  If 10 people take it up, our software will be paid for.  The queue will form directly behind me.  9 left.

 

"Oil and fuel" membership.  US$12 per annum (A buck a month...).  The more the merrier.  Any funds received to pay for (in order) software renewals, hosting, more of the software suite.

 

I certainly think it's sustainable.  If I'm wrong, we'll find another way.  I'm a triumph owner/restorer.  I'm well practices at doing my best on the smell of an oily rag.

 

I need to do a little tweaking to get the site ready for the new software.  I'd like to go skydiving this weekend, but if the weathers crap here, I'll get started.  Don't be surprised or worried if the "Maintenance" window is up.

 

Nothings set in stone, let me know if you can see a better way/plan.

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

[GT6Steve]

I've been too busy to really follow all of the work being done here.

 

Firstly, Thanx for that!

 

Next A few things I'd like, just to clarify my mind.

 

I'd like to keep what we have now as opposed to archived and starting over ala TTN.

 

I'd like to stop all these false registrants exploiting the forums good name.

 

I'd like new members to be able to join without a subscription fee.

 

That said, I would be willing to kick in $100 for startup costs on the best system based on expert recommendations and I would be willing to support the annual fund drive to keep it going.

 

If we elect to BUY the software needed, where and how do we send the money?  I seem to recalll Dave's link was via Paypal?

 

Edit, Craig's post appeared while I was typing.  Sign me up....eight to go

[GT6MK3]

I suspect we were typing at the same time.

 

1. Your welcome.  But, as I've said, thank Dave.  I'll say it till I'm blue in the face, it's his site.

 

2. Me too.  I don't think we can do it perfectly, but I do think we can go close.

 

3. Me too.  I plan to implement a strong version of captcha, email verification, and some "Human" questions for new registrants.  If that doesn't work, we go stronger.  Spam truly shits me.

 

4. Me too.  I have no intention of having any benefit for paying a sub other than an acknowledgement in the User Box.  

 

5. Kick in $25 once it's going, then $12pa after.  Looks like the "Bricks and Mortar" queue is down to 8.  

 

Love your work Steve.

 

C.

[TIMSGT6 X 5]

Count me.... in 7 to go

 

Cheers