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Covid 19, novel corona virus. Split from off-grid thread


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1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

American origin....... two nations separated by a common language :tongue:

With apologies to whomever it is I’m misquoting....

I believe that was Samuel Clemens AKA Mark Twain...

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Well I’m still spamming because I think it’s important...... and this seems to bear it out Pity he takes half an hour when it needs 10 minutes tops but anyway..... Trial in a 

You'd think there was a conspiracy over that expression even 

Someone sent me this... Feels like we are straying into MMR territory here chaps. To be honest I can only cope with so many conspiracy theories at once before I have to run back to the

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Hmm... google reckons George Bernard Shaw.

But thanks for the Mark Twain idea because he has some great quotes, which still held true today.... just a small selection....

A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
 

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
 

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and man.
 

Loyalty to the Nation all the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

What would men be without women? Scarce, sir…mighty scarce.

I did not attend his funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.

 

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No doubt, Pete, you hope that with your words, like Bishop Hugh Latimer, you hope to " light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out", but this time a candle of correct English usage.   He hoped to encourage his companion at the stake for heresy, Nicholas Ridley, by telling him to "Play the man", but I fear that unlike religion, there is no absolute form of English.      Instead, five centuries later,  this language glories in different words and usages, unashamedly robs others of theirs and continues to meld and mould itself in new and exciting ways!     

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@PeteStuppsPete I am on your side with regards to language.

'Hello, how are you today?'

An enquiry as to the health and wellbeing of the other party. To which a pertinent response would be,

'I'm very well thank you'

compared to

'I'm good'... shudder!

What does that mean? I'm not being naughty, I'm a virtuoso on the zither?

The English language can be truly wonderful and expressive to the point of being an art form. Using it to its fullest extent is far more interesting than reducing it to the bare minimum vocabulary conceivable. Shaw is brilliant for his quotes, Twain too. I am currently reading PG Wodehouse, described by Douglas Adams as 'arguably the greatest musician of the English language'.

I don't know if you are a cyclist or have heard of 'the Rules'? Mostly bo##ox but "Rule 5" is the verbal shortcut that is called out when someone is in need of displaying some moral fibre as they used to say.

I have this very framed print on the wall above my turbo trainer... (please pardon the Anglo-Saxon)

s-l200.jpg

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19 hours ago, JohnD said:

No doubt, Pete, you hope that with your words, like Bishop Hugh Latimer, you hope to " light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out", but this time a candle of correct English usage.  

John I am quite convinced that there is no correct English but am confident there is a spectrum of quality from 'excellent' to 'execrable', or thereabouts. There is no shame in trying to avoid the latter. 

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19 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Hello, how are you today?'

An enquiry as to the health and wellbeing of the other party. To which a pertinent response would be,

'I'm very well thank you'

compared to

'I'm good'... shudder!

:biggrin:

My ten-year-old uses the "I'm good" phrase and has to repeatedly endure my hectoring dad-joke reply: "I'll be the judge of that!"

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27 minutes ago, PeteStupps said:

:biggrin:

My ten-year-old uses the "I'm good" phrase and has to repeatedly endure my hectoring dad-joke reply: "I'll be the judge of that!"

The opportunity to mildly annoy our children is a small but nonetheless welcome compensation :lol:

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My daughter-in-law uses that "I'm good" trope.    A mild irritation in a lovely woman!   But it must have been around at least two generations if Stupps Jr is using it!

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I assume my daughter gets it from her classmates, the majority of whom seem to have learnt English from Hollywood and Youtube. I nearly lost my temper when she pointed out an 'ice-cream truck' a few years ago.

Back to the actual subject though: Fullfact have done an article on Covid & vitamin D, which seems quite balanced to this non-expert

https://fullfact.org/health/vitamin-d-covid-evidence/

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Lorries, aeroplanes, lifts, sea.....

Although in some way even worse is the bizarre americanised pronunciations that is becoming prevalent.

Anyway

1 hour ago, PeteStupps said:

Back to the actual subject though: Fullfact have done an article on Covid & vitamin D, which seems quite balanced to this non-expert

https://fullfact.org/health/vitamin-d-covid-evidence/

That seems like a much more balanced article. There is an unfortunate but understandable desire to find easy wins as it were. But there are far too many studies that fail at the peer review stage due to basic inadequacies in the design or data collection protocol. Add in confirmation bias and things can all too easily go a bit awry. If doing something that may help carries no risk the maybe that's ok but Vitamin D is one that needs care to avoid overdose because of the serious health issues it can cause in adults and children. Excess calcium deposition is one and in adults can result in serious liver and heart issues in the liver and heart. There is also the basic question of 'which vitamin D'?

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Don’t really agree.

Yes, it is possible to have too much vitamin D. But you really have to work at it. Info I can find suggests 50,000 + IU per day for months is needed orally and most of the (rare) cases are caused by mislabelled product or prolonged medical error leading overdose by injection.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-vitamin-d-is-too-much#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4

Meanwhile, there does seem to be enough evidence to reasonably strongly suggest that it does help the immune system work better, particularly with respiratory infections (in general, not just Covid).

Given that most of us living at high latitudes (especially those with darker complexions) will be deficient during winter months, it really seems like a no-brainer to take moderate (<4000 IU daily) amounts through the winter at least.

Will do you no harm and very likely do you some good.

D3 is the animal derived version (also the type synthesised in the skin) and is better absorbed than the D2 plant version.

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Nick, I'm not in a position to argue this at the technical level as vitamin response in humans is not an area of expertise for me although I have done enough research to identify which vit D variety I should be taking (yes it is D3) and how much as a supplement someone living where I do should be taking to get my RDA. So yes to everything you said on the <4000 IU although I do cut down on supplements in the few summer months and I wouldn't habitually dose to that level without medical advice.

But that wasn't really the point of issue. All the various official health websites suggest this is around the appropriate level for normal healthy adults. It is different for children - which in itself is an issue with the COVID claims. But those levels are below what is being touted as a COVID prophylactic.

The questions I would have about the research into higher doses would be what was the test population, what existing health conditions did they have and what level of invasive and non-invasive investigate was carried out on those people to identify side effects. It would certainly seem that decent quality research into the benefits of vit D as a prophylactic is both limited and inconclusive.

As for the test population I have a lot of information on my heart on account of my interesting medical history. So I know that I have some minor residual heart scarring on account of a severe case of myocarditis some years ago. That was identified by radiology using I think thallium. Not an everyday test. Similarly I know that I already have some calcium deposition around my heart. I also know that I have what is known as athletic heart, hypertrophy of the left ventricle, basically the muscle is 1.5cm thick. No symptoms except being very fit. Only way to identify that is by ECG and echocardiogram - either that or a heart attack where the cause is heart disease rather than as a result of genes and fitness.  And by the time it gets to that it seems a bit late to me.

I don't know if the folks doing those high dose tests looked at anyone with my set of conditions and given that the NHS et al say to take no more than the 4000IU per day it would suggest to me that that level of study hasn't been undertaken.

The thing about all those things I know about me is that unless someone has been specifically investigated they will not know if they have any of the conditions or the impact of taking huge doses of vit D will have on them.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Lorries, aeroplanes, lifts, sea.....

Although in some way even worse is the bizarre americanised pronunciations that is becoming prevalent.

Somehow, I assumed that the new rover recently landed on Mars was "Per-severance" (stress on the second syllable), because that was the way the Americans would say it, wouldn't they?  

But NO!   They say it "PERseverance", (stress on the first) and endearingly it is nicknamed "Percy"!

John

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2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Somehow, I assumed that the new rover recently landed on Mars was "Per-severance" (stress on the second syllable), because that was the way the Americans would say it, wouldn't they?  

But NO!   They say it "PERseverance", (stress on the first) and endearingly it is nicknamed "Percy"!

John

Percy, how lovely :biggrin:

2 hours ago, PeterC said:

What they are describing is evidence of a link with COVID severity and vitamin D deficiency. Which is not really the same thing. Sounds a bit like I'm splitting hairs but it's the some is good so more must be better thing. A bit like the difference between marathon runners drinking enough to prevent dehydration and drinking to excess and suffering hypernutremia - I of course exaggerate slightly for effect

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13 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Percy, how lovely :biggrin:

What they are describing is evidence of a link with COVID severity and vitamin D deficiency. Which is not really the same thing. Sounds a bit like I'm splitting hairs but it's the some is good so more must be better thing. A bit like the difference between marathon runners drinking enough to prevent dehydration and drinking to excess and suffering hypernutremia - I of course exaggerate slightly for effect

I might have concluded that if I had not read beyond the first two sentences.

 

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16 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

but it's the some is good so more must be better thing.

I'm not picking that up from that piece?  At most there is the suggestion that some  "accepted norms" for blood levels may a bit on the low side and also that in some cases, where serious deficiency is proven by testing, then initial bolus doses by injection (though later on they caution against overdoing it) or an initial month at higher oral levels (10,000 IU say) before dropping back to more normal levels (1000 - 3000 IU say) may be beneficial to bring levels up to normal more quickly.  Actual monitoring of levels preferred of course.

As with so many things, the devil is in the dosage.....

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There is a lot of repetition but the overall impression I got was that people who are vitamin deficient are more prone to more severe symptoms.

Post diagnosis of COVID symptoms in vitamin d deficient patients it is argued that this can to some extent be compensated for by administration of high doses of vitamin d as part of the treatment. 

The way I read it I also got the impression that it was being argued that in asymptomatic people with vitamin d deficiency a short period of higher than RDA dosing would get them back to the point where they would be equal to a healthy - regards vitamin d - population in terms of COVID response. 

I do however go back to the UK scientific community opinion which is still in the position that there is insufficient quality data to argue the benefit.  And extrapolating the safety for the whole population in concerrt with other diagnosed and undiagnosed conditions. 

But caveat emptor. Vit D is unregulated when taken as a dietary supplement. So personal choice.

Myton point remains. Is high dose vit d safe to use across the population as a therapeutic drug treatment in doses significantly higher than in normal use as a dietary supplement. 

By chance it was discovered that a common sedative was also effective in mitigating severe morning sickness in pregnant women. And was widely prescribed as such at the start of the 1960s. Unfortunately in all the excitement few thought to make sure there were no contraindications before rolling it out. And we got the thalidomide scandal.

I know I am susceptible to calcium deposition and I know that vit d can cause this. So until someone with some actual data on this comes along I'll not be taking that particular risk. And that's just the stuff I know about.

On a more positive note I got my first jab (or jag as it's called in these parts) today. So far I'm still alive. Although I am going to wear tinfoil for a while just in case they try to activate the chip.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Although I am going to wear tinfoil for a while just in case they try to activate the chip.

:smile: Does this need to be kept well earthed to work?

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Re safety of doses 10 times higher than NICE recommend. Most of the signatories to thsi Open Letter take such doses: https://vitamindforall.org/letter.html

4000 IU pd will get most of us to a physiological serum 25(OH(D of 100-150 nmol/L. But not all, hence impeortance of a measurement. now is a good time to do it.

Max physiological solar production rate is 10 to 20,000 IU pd.

Diseases linked to D3, compendium: https://vitamindwiki.com/

Trusting UK D3 advisory panel NICE is dangerous to health. The two links at top of Open Letter show NICE to be plain wrong.

Peter

 

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re calcium deposition: vitamin K2 Mk4 Mk7 is a known influence as it promotes Ca deposition in bone and not arteries and other soft tissue. Its supply depends upon having the correct gut bacteria so deficiency cannot be predicted from diet alone.

I take a supplement twice a week on days when I dont take D3 to avoid competition for gut uptake. Belt and  braces maybe, as plasma [Ca] was fine after two years' 4000IU D3 and no K2.

more here:  https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

Peter

 

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