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Covid 19, novel corona virus. Split from off-grid thread


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That's really interesting Nick. Quite a persuasive hypothesis in explaining the mechanism in acute cases. Interesting to see how it progresses. Also interesting to see if they look at recovery processes for those patients that don't require an early autopsy :sad:

30 minutes ago, PeterC said:

In 75 years i have had to visit dentist/hygeinits every 6 months. But not for the past3 years, oral health transformed. Have taken 4000IU ( or more) during that time.

But we cant expect dentists and Colgate etc to vote for Xmas, we are their turkeys.

Jeez Peter, you have a right bee in yer bunnet with the conspiracists :woot:

I've too have visited the dentist every six month for my entire life and still do. But I haven't had any invasive dental treatment in almost 50 years when I got my last filling. And I've never binged on vitamin D, unless you count the time when as a child we lived in Aden. And when I got most of my fillings. Been pretty much clear on that front since we came back to the gloomy northern Scottish weather. :biggrin:

I suspect neither of our two wildly opposite personal experiences qualify as statistically relevant on the epidemiological front.

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Absolutely. But the asymptomatic, untested cases are how the bloody thing gets everywhere......

Well I’m still spamming because I think it’s important...... and this seems to bear it out Pity he takes half an hour when it needs 10 minutes tops but anyway..... Trial in a 

You'd think there was a conspiracy over that expression even 

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1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

That's really interesting Nick. Quite a persuasive hypothesis in explaining the mechanism in acute cases. Interesting to see how it progresses. Also interesting to see if they look at recovery processes for those patients that don't require an early autopsy :sad:

Jeez Peter, you have a right bee in yer bunnet with the conspiracists :woot:

I've too have visited the dentist every six month for my entire life and still do. But I haven't had any invasive dental treatment in almost 50 years when I got my last filling. And I've never binged on vitamin D, unless you count the time when as a child we lived in Aden. And when I got most of my fillings. Been pretty much clear on that front since we came back to the gloomy northern Scottish weather. :biggrin:

I suspect neither of our two wildly opposite personal experiences qualify as statistically relevant on the epidemiological front.

Colin, Caucasians fall into three groups in terms of thier immune cell responses to D3, Low,medium and high in roughly equal sizes, I probably am alow responder, you possibly high. The test for response is a   research level test - PBMC DNA methylation  - and the vast majority of clinicians will not be aware. Personalised D3 index is called for by the researchers that embraces responsivity and response of serum 25(OH)D to supplements. That should encompass the large body of science describing D3 signalling including receptor mutations. The science is vastly deeper than I can summarise  here. Peter

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10 hours ago, PeterC said:

Personalised D3 index is called for by the researchers that embraces responsivity and response of serum 25(OH)D to supplements. That should encompass the large body of science describing D3 signalling including receptor mutations. The science is vastly deeper than I can summarise  here. Peter

Personalised everything is probably called for for all patients as all the indicators suggest that individual response to a vast range of things from treatment to just what, how and when we eat, sleep and drink.

The problem is that we don't yet know all what we have to look for or even how. And we kind of need to get that sorted before we start trying to redesign the entire health system to suit. 

The science is accelerating at a phenomenal rate but even so such a fundamental change in approach is still many years away. 

And in the meantime we are going to see many many people who say their particular thing is the one silver bullet we should put all our attention into. And anyone who ignores it is plotting.

That's the way things work. 

The thing in this though is that it's not the greatest medical/ pharma/research conspiracy of all time with millions if people all involved. You know like Apollo.

That sort of thing gets in the way of making the case.

In my view anyway.

I had enough of that stuff when just before graduation as Engineers we all got taken to one side and made to swear an oath that we wouldn't let on that we knew Newton's laws were cobblers and that the earth is actually flat. :D

 

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D3 stuff aside (and it doesn’t conflict in any way, quite the opposite), the exciting thing about this theory is it implies the ability to more accurately identify those at risk of severe disease. Also strong potential to prevent it progressing to serious disease after onset by simple methods   such as mouthwashes.

I find it convincing because it’s come about from skilled observers seeing many images that are different from other lung infections and working back to understand why.

I also am familiar with the endocarditis /dentist issue as my grandmother had to endure 3 cycles of this before any medics took her seriously - she’d twigged it was the dentist caused it the second time, but GP dismissed it. 25 years ago now it’s true, but after she ended up in hospital on the 3rd occasion we discovered that even then it was fairly well known and the consultant was despairing of the ignorance of his community colleagues.....

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3 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Personalised everything is probably called for for all patients as all the indicators suggest that individual response to a vast range of things from treatment to just what, how and when we eat, sleep and drink.

The problem is that we don't yet know all what we have to look for or even how. And we kind of need to get that sorted before we start trying to redesign the entire health system to suit. 

The science is accelerating at a phenomenal rate but even so such a fundamental change in approach is still many years away. 

And in the meantime we are going to see many many people who say their particular thing is the one silver bullet we should put all our attention into. And anyone who ignores it is plotting.

That's the way things work. 

The thing in this though is that it's not the greatest medical/ pharma/research conspiracy of all time with millions if people all involved. You know like Apollo.

That sort of thing gets in the way of making the case.

In my view anyway.

I had enough of that stuff when just before graduation as Engineers we all got taken to one side and made to swear an oath that we wouldn't let on that we knew Newton's laws were cobblers and that the earth is actually flat. :D

 

Colin, check out the list of diseases associated with D3-deficiency on vitamindwiki.org and ask yourself why are D3 supplements not being advised by every GP. Cost 2p per day, safe, and highly effective. Who loses?  and who pays with ill-health, even longevity. Peter

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2 hours ago, PeterC said:

Colin, check out the list of diseases associated with D3-deficiency on vitamindwiki.org and ask yourself why are D3 supplements not being advised by every GP. Cost 2p per day, safe, and highly effective. Who loses?  and who pays with ill-health, even longevity. Peter

Not denying any of this healthy diet stuff and the links between oral health and a whole raft of diseases and conditions (including my particular interest of alzheimers) is becoming increasing clear now that doctors and dentists (amongst other) are at long last starting to talk to each other.

4 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

D3 stuff aside (and it doesn’t conflict in any way, quite the opposite), the exciting thing about this theory is it implies the ability to more accurately identify those at risk of severe disease. Also strong potential to prevent it progressing to serious disease after onset by simple methods   such as mouthwashes.

I find it convincing because it’s come about from skilled observers seeing many images that are different from other lung infections and working back to understand why.

I also am familiar with the endocarditis /dentist issue as my grandmother had to endure 3 cycles of this before any medics took her seriously - she’d twigged it was the dentist caused it the second time, but GP dismissed it. 25 years ago now it’s true, but after she ended up in hospital on the 3rd occasion we discovered that even then it was fairly well known and the consultant was despairing of the ignorance of his community colleagues.....

Yes this is fantastically exciting.

I was also reading some fascinating stuff about RNA based therapies which are another former Cinderella branch thrust into the limelight by Covid.

The only thing gents that I have any real issue with is the conspiracy baggage. Like I say I firmly believe that this is counterproductive as it turns a constructive intellectual debate into a shouting match conducted at a divisive glandular level. And there's enough of that cobblers in the world as it is.

I have a good mate currently under siege along with the army and police in the north of Mozambique since the town and their camp was attacked by the Al-Shabaab boys on Wednesday. A situation that is nothing to do with D3 but considerably stirred up by this sort of conspiracy sh1t.

Sorry gentlemen rant over :mad:

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1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Not denying any of this healthy diet stuff and the links between oral health and a whole raft of diseases and conditions (including my particular interest of alzheimers) is becoming increasing clear now that doctors and dentists (amongst other) are at long last starting to talk to each other.

Yes this is fantastically exciting.

I was also reading some fascinating stuff about RNA based therapies which are another former Cinderella branch thrust into the limelight by Covid.

The only thing gents that I have any real issue with is the conspiracy baggage. Like I say I firmly believe that this is counterproductive as it turns a constructive intellectual debate into a shouting match conducted at a divisive glandular level. And there's enough of that cobblers in the world as it is.

I have a good mate currently under siege along with the army and police in the north of Mozambique since the town and their camp was attacked by the Al-Shabaab boys on Wednesday. A situation that is nothing to do with D3 but considerably stirred up by this sort of conspiracy sh1t.

Sorry gentlemen rant over :mad:

Colin,  re Alzheimers and Parkinson's (my interest). "Brain Fables" by Alberto Espay is well worth reading. He is an established  PD researcher and wrote the book to point out basic, elementary errors in the consensus opinion that both are caused by aberrant proteins ( tau, amyloid, and synuclein). This error led a major pharma to spend $1 billion to eliminate the tau/Alzheimer protein, and they succeeded . But the pts' disease worsened compared with controls !!! It is quite possible that tau is actually a defensive protein. The pharma, fingers  burnt, has pulled out of Alz research. Back to square one.

re conspiracies. USA D3 researchers, way ahead of UK, are very suspicious of deliberate dissing of D3 by pharmas, medical journal editors protecting advert income, researchers funded by pharmas, and medical institutions. eg http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v14n22.shtml   The parallels with the tobacco industry are there.

The Wellcome-Gates Accelerator for C-19 specifically forbade D3 trials for C-19 at the very  start of the pandemic,a smoking gun that points to WT protecting its investments in big pharma.

Peter

 

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I was reading about a possible direct link between oral health (a specific bacterium associated with gum disease IIRC) and dementias recently.. I'll post a link if I can find it

Edit: Not the original link (probably New Scientists) but the same thing.....

https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/large-study-links-gum-disease-dementia#:~:text=The mouth is home to,related dementias%2C especially vascular dementia.

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41 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I was reading about a possible direct link between oral health (a specific bacterium associated with gum disease IIRC) and dementias recently.. I'll post a link if I can find it

Edit: Not the original link (probably New Scientists) but the same thing.....

https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/large-study-links-gum-disease-dementia#:~:text=The mouth is home to,related dementias%2C especially vascular dementia.

Inflammatilon in peripheral tissues eg mouth,lung, skin, gut etc can liberate pro-inflammatory cytokines eg IL6, IL17 that can access the brain and promote inflammation there. Peripheral inflammation in the elderyl is very common ("inflammaging") and so is D3-deficiency. Holick reveiws D3 and cognition here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979692/ and D3 actions against peripheral inflammation here: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/7/2097/htm

I am persuaded by the evidence that my life-long skin inflammation (psoriasis) has triggered my PD at age 72: I never took supplemtns of sunbathed. Am now trying to abolish the psoriasis to curtail cytokine production with 40,000 IU pd plus UVB.  At  age 75 in UK around 1% of UK males will develop PD and the drugs only hide the symptoms. My GP and geriatricians were completely unaware of D3. There is no cure, no drugs.  If my experiment does not slow progression the wheelchair beckons. That is why I keep banging on about D3. There is no risk or expense in taking 4000-6000 IU pd (except for sarcoidosis pts)  and the benefits may be enormous.

Peter

 

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1 hour ago, PeterC said:

Colin,  re Alzheimers and Parkinson's (my interest). "Brain Fables" by Alberto Espay is well worth reading. He is an established  PD researcher and wrote the book to point out basic, elementary errors in the consensus opinion that both are caused by aberrant proteins ( tau, amyloid, and synuclein). This error led a major pharma to spend $1 billion to eliminate the tau/Alzheimer protein, and they succeeded . But the pts' disease worsened compared with controls !!! It is quite possible that tau is actually a defensive protein. The pharma, fingers  burnt, has pulled out of Alz research. Back to square one.

I had read about this Peter in connection with alzheimers and also the possible connection with oral infections Nick. Alzheimers has shown up in my father's side of the family on a number of occasions and my father effectively died of it. hence my interest in the disease and my volunteering in research programmes.

PD is another cruel disease and I sincerely wish you success with your personal D3 trial. At 75 the possible side effects are irrelevant especially when compared to the prize.

I do however see big pharma taking an interest in alzheimers again as if the current round of RNA research work by some of the smaller companies like Biontech, Moderna and Alnylam which is at long last starting to bear some fruit.

1 hour ago, PeterC said:

re conspiracies. USA D3 researchers, way ahead of UK, are very suspicious of deliberate dissing of D3 by pharmas, medical journal editors protecting advert income, researchers funded by pharmas, and medical institutions. eg http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v14n22.shtml   The parallels with the tobacco industry are there.

Biased and poor quality research called out by the scientific review process. Imperfect as it is I believe it's a more powerful tool than 'turtles all the way down' even if it does sometimes take longer to get the answer than we would like. It is far better one than the MMR vaccine 'conspiracy' approach.

But all this is interesting stuff.

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Colin, take care with volunteering for trials. Brain Fables reveals just how little is known about the injury processes. It is quite possible thje paradig on which the RNA trials are based ( got a link?) is wrong. ALz, PD and dementias are not studied in the same way as cancers etc- it is not feasible to biopsy thee brain, so the etiology hs been guessed at from 'reading the ashes'  at postmortem. It has been assumed that a clinical diagnosis of Alz and lots of tau and amyloid at death means the tau-amyloid was causal. That is now under serious  doubt. A healthy woodpecker brain has 25 times the level of tau than a healthy human , so there is a growing suspicion that tau may be exerting a defensive action,so any procedure targeted at reducing tau may make the disease worse. Beware.

Brainm Fables is written for ageneral audience, I thnik you would find it interesting.

Peter

 

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3 minutes ago, PeterC said:

Colin, take care with volunteering for trials. Brain Fables reveals just how little is known about the injury processes. It is quite possible thje paradig on which the RNA trials are based ( got a link?) is wrong. ALz, PD and dementias are not studied in the same way as cancers etc- it is not feasible to biopsy thee brain, so the etiology hs been guessed at from 'reading the ashes'  at postmortem. It has been assumed that a clinical diagnosis of Alz and lots of tau and amyloid at death means the tau-amyloid was causal. That is now under serious  doubt. A healthy woodpecker brain has 25 times the level of tau than a healthy human , so there is a growing suspicion that tau may be exerting a defensive action,so any procedure targeted at reducing tau may make the disease worse. Beware.

Brainm Fables is written for ageneral audience, I thnik you would find it interesting.

Peter

 

Peter, thanks for the warnings. Well heeded

To date I have not done anything more than volunteer for general medical type tests, bloods, ECG, etc and cognifitve type testing (all very interesting) as part of long term study of people with a family history of Alz and no current symptoms.

I have no plans to take part in any drug trials, studiously avoided these to date and intend to do so unless there comes a pressing need I suppose.

The most invasive thing to date was giving a lumbar puncture sample. Very easy and painless. Until about two days later when the headache kicked in and I was pretty much prostrated by it for three days. I am told it is a bit like a migraine. I'm glad I don't get them. Worst I've ever had even compared to the one I got after getting some nitroglycerin on my skin many years ago :blink:

 

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4 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

I'm glad I don't get them.

I wish I didn't.  Pretty much weekly, usually at weekends, 24 - 36 hours.  Half the Orcs of Mordor are trying to kick their way out through my left eye as I type now.  Nothing touches 'em so just have to crack on and try to ignore.

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6 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Peter, thanks for the warnings. Well heeded

To date I have not done anything more than volunteer for general medical type tests, bloods, ECG, etc and cognifitve type testing (all very interesting) as part of long term study of people with a family history of Alz and no current symptoms.

I have no plans to take part in any drug trials, studiously avoided these to date and intend to do so unless there comes a pressing need I suppose.

The most invasive thing to date was giving a lumbar puncture sample. Very easy and painless. Until about two days later when the headache kicked in and I was pretty much prostrated by it for three days. I am told it is a bit like a migraine. I'm glad I don't get them. Worst I've ever had even compared to the one I got after getting some nitroglycerin on my skin many years ago :blink:

 

Do you know if the study you enrolled in measures serum 25(OH)D?    Because it's hot, 1800 papers this year:

image.png.bfdeb1b5c245fbd51aa49fbf27404251.png

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19 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I wish I didn't.  Pretty much weekly, usually at weekends, 24 - 36 hours.  Half the Orcs of Mordor are trying to kick their way out through my left eye as I type now.  Nothing touches 'em so just have to crack on and try to ignore.

I looked into migraine for the OH.  Omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA together with low dose aspirin (75mg) taken daily was one option. They produce "resolvins" that resolve inflammation, thought to contribute to migraines. Magnesium deficiency another- it is apparently quite common. And choline, also marginal in soem diets.  I dont get migraines but take all the above, belt and braces for PD.

 

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39 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I wish I didn't.  Pretty much weekly, usually at weekends, 24 - 36 hours.  Half the Orcs of Mordor are trying to kick their way out through my left eye as I type now.  Nothing touches 'em so just have to crack on and try to ignore.

Not good 

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Headaches - when I was building Silverback, I painted all the body units inside and underside with black Hammerite.    It was winter an pouring rain, so in the garage with the doors closed.  My wife came in with a coffee at one point, the fumes forced her out again, but I was oblivious.

That night, I suffered the only migraine I have ever had, just the headache, no other symptoms, but I can  sympathise with anyone who gets them!   

If you are getting them that often, Nick, you could qualify for treatment with a 'tryptan'.    See your GP??

John

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6 hours ago, PeterC said:

Do you know if the study you enrolled in measures serum 25(OH)D?    Because it's hot, 1800 papers this year:

image.png.bfdeb1b5c245fbd51aa49fbf27404251.png

Don't know all the details Peter as they keep the findings anonymous. Unless they discover something untoward of course. 

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5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Headaches - when I was building Silverback, I painted all the body units inside and underside with black Hammerite.    It was winter an pouring rain, so in the garage with the doors closed.  My wife came in with a coffee at one point, the fumes forced her out again, but I was oblivious.

That night, I suffered the only migraine I have ever had, just the headache, no other symptoms, but I can  sympathise with anyone who gets them! 

Similar painting our ceiling plasterwork with a spray gun and oil based paint to seal the centuries of nicotine stains.

Suddenly realised I was almost unable to stand, like being extremely drunk but without any of the pleasurable aspects.

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When I painted the Vitesse body sections in 1989, I did it with cellulose in my fathers single garage. Not ideal. I had a charcoal mask and basically painted until I couldn’t see what I was painting anymore, then went outside to let the dust settle.

The odd thing was that I felt fine until I got out in the fresh air, then distinctly squiffy for a few minutes.  Had an interesting effect on the guts too....

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Dragging the thread, kicking and screaming, back on course, German researchers claim to have found a common factor in some of those who have suffered blood clotting after AstraZeneca (AZ) vaccine:    https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1

Their paper is in 'pre-print' form, not peer reveiewed or conventionally pubished, and includes 9 patients with blot clot problems, four of whom died.     Without saying if they were those who died (the tests could be done on living patients) it says that "four patients tested strongly positive for anti-PF4/heparin antibodies by immunoassay".   This refers to a condition that occurs, very rarely, in people treated with heparin, the anticoagulant, called 'Heparin induced thrombocytopenia'.   https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.g7566#:~:text=Heparin induced thrombocytopenia (HIT) is,and produce a hypercoagulable state.

The 'blood coagulation cascade' is a complex series of interactions that is the natural mechanism that leads to blood clotting.    Heparin may be given when abnormal clotting has occurred, or is feared, for instance after major surgery.    It binds to 'platelets' in the blood  to prevent them initiating a further cascade and to inhibit the formation of blood clots.    Very rarely, the heparin/platelet complex attracts antibodies, setting off the cascade again and causing blood clots where they should not be.        This 'uses up' platelets, so their number falls in the blood, which is "thrombocytopaenia".      The treatment is to stop heparin and use a different anticoagulant.

As this theory involves the immune system it has an immediate attraction when associated with a vaccine, but clearly needs much more work.    And even if it were to be substantiated, it is important to remember that abnormal blood clotting caused by Covid-19 is how it kills many people.  https://thorax.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/24/thoraxjnl-2020-215383

And, Covid is a lethal and disabling condition, which can be largely and completely prevented by vaccination.     If - IF! - 'vaccine induced thrombocytopaenia' is a real thing, it will remain a very rare, and treatable, side effect.    The balance of risk remains very much much in favour of vaccination.

John

 


 

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Thanks for summarising that John, haven't really been sure what to make of this story. I had heard that Pfizer vaccine recipients had a similar rate of blood clots, although that doesn't seem to be getting the same attention for whatever reason. Perhaps there's a clearer link with AZ? 

This is probably out of date now but talks about 18 patients in 20 million for AZ, versus 17 (or 20) patients out of ~20 million for Pfizer! https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91813

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Thanks, John.

The issue with AZ seems to be yet another 'politicising' of the pandemic and certain parties' need to place a smoke screen in front of their own culpability in either failing to make adequate contractual provision or backing the wrong horse.

Much as there needs to be an investigation into BoJo's performance and steerage over the first six months of last year, equally, there needs to be an investigation into the motives and competence displayed by M. Macron and Mme van der Leyen, amongst others. If the statistics of those affected are correct, this is emerging as a targeted and ill-considered smear.

At the risk of a little bit of chauvinism, I wager that the EU's performance and outcome would have stood up to inspection somewhat better under UvdL's predecessor, Donald Tusk.

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Make hay while the sun shines on the current vaccines. The  resurgence of C-19 deaths in brazil shows that when 50% have been infected the virus mutates around the antibodies, or antibdies are short-lived. New variants are going to increase globally and with open borders in UK too. And unlike flu are impossible to predict 6 months ahead. From now on vaccines will be fighting yesterday's war as new variants evolve.

Given a decent summer sun we will be safe until 25(OH)D drops again in autumn. Only then will the efficacy of the current vaccine be known. New  variants will be identified genomically but SAGE will assume the vax is working, being ignorant of D3 action on innate immunity.

This paper is nearly 10 years old and shows 4000 IU pd reduces respiratiry tract infections and naso-pharyngeal bugs. Note that many Swedes will be high-responders to 25(OH)D and the control group relatively well protected compared with southern europeans.https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/2/6/e001663.full.pdf

I take the vaccine(s) but more from an instinct for belt and braces. If I had to chose I'd plump for D3, it tackles all variants the minute they land. 

Peter

 

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