May's Brexit Plan

[RedRooster]

Very good, i like her humour. 

[Janner]

2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

 

Back to filling and sanding 

I'm still filling and sanding Nick, but, walls, not bodywork

The joys of buying a bungalow from a really old person (note the care taken here with wording!)

 

John

[PaulAA]

Nick, there is more comedy to be aghast at here:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/dec/08/stephen-mangan-emily-thornberry-in-conversation-brexit-blair-performance-anxiety

What I read from this is that the UK's political class (a) recognises that Brexit will do significant harm, (b) acknowledges that the referendum was not necessarily legitimate or well-executed, but (c) thinks that to offer a second referendum would 'undermine democracy'.  Labour appear to be banking on the collapse of the current govt, so that they can sweep into power and themselves execute Brexit, perpetuating the myth that they can wrest a wholly new set of magically-acceptable conditions from the EU.

Difficult not to conclude that, despite the slim majority and increasingly evident breaches of law, MPs are now hiding behind the legitimacy of the referendum, claiming it as an unquestionable expression of democracy.  They recognise that the UK did not vote as turkeys voting for Christmas, but their hands are tied, etc., etc.

Also interesting to read this week that, in one national poll, it became evident that a significant - very significant - number of people understood the net result of exiting the EU to be maintaining the status quo.  They did not understand that it will have a direct and material effect on their day-to-day lives.

Paul

Edit: just seen that Romano Prodi thinks that the EU would be willing to renegotiate if the May deal is voted down.  That's the same Romano Prodi who misdirected police when Aldo Moro was kidnapped (and later killed), claiming that he had received directions from a Ouija board during a seance.  Maybe the spirits have been misdirecting him again...

Edited December 8, 2018 by PaulAA

[Nick Jones]

More delusion. The solution is perfectly obvious. It is the elephant in the room, but now it’s a matter of “saving face”.

The effort and argument being squandered on avoidance of doing the sensible remains breathtaking........ when will a responsible adult arrive?!

[Nick Jones]

4 hours ago, Janner said:

I'm still filling and sanding Nick, but, walls, not bodywork

The joys of buying a bungalow from a really old person (note the care taken here with wording!)

 

John

Filling and sanding a whole house worth of walls..........!

Better stop moaning as I’m only doing a car, and a small one at that - though it is quite curvaceous.

[Nick Jones]

Maybot definitely suffering a major malfunction now. Presumably it is addicted to the agony of “leadership” and would cling to it for a few more days...... pity the rest of us have to suffer along!

[Nick Jones]

And the vote to be replaced by debates on the “ivory bill”.

No invitation for “Tusk” and “elephant in the room” jokes here.......

[oldtuckunder]

Just saw the headlines, how much rope do some people need?

Alan

[PaulAA]

Alan

She still has a long way to, erm, drop before she reaches the seventh ring of hell and the seat with Call Me Dave Cameron's name on it. She's not yet the Worst PM Britain has ever had, but clearly nothing is too humiliating in her quest to win that accolade from her predecessor.

Paul

[Nick Jones]

So how would you define “worst prime minister”? She’s got to be a contender.........

Though I note that call-me-dave (unworthy of capitals) is still claiming he doesn’t regret starting this sorry clusterfuck.... so he’s a contender........

Then there is tony b.liar and the Iraq war who first made me ashamed to be British, so he’s a contender.......

But no, the unending, shambolic horror of the May premiership surely has to be the worst..... and not over yet. Aaarrrrrgh!

[PaulAA]

Nick

Cameron visited this pestilence on the UK to deal with an internal party squabble.  By his hand has the country been cut in two.  May is simply an unqualified and incompetent executor of the demon that Cameron unleashed.

I think she has a long way to go before she matches his sheer Machiavellianism.

Paul

[Nick Jones]

Machiavellian?  I think you give him way too much credit. Merely too arrogant to realise he could loose, in spite of the lesson of the Scottish referendum. Too dim to realise the consequences of loss.  Too cowardly to even attempt to ride the demon he unleashed........

We could award demerits for the worst opposition too, though I'm not convinced there has actually been one for the last few years 

[PaulAA]

On reflection... you're right.  Machiavellian is indeed way above Dave's head.

I'm sorry, but you have me at a loss on the word 'Opposition'.  I thought that quaint idea had been abandoned years ago.

[Nick Jones]

17 minutes ago, PaulAA said:

I'm sorry, but you have me at a loss on the word 'Opposition'.  I thought that quaint idea had been abandoned years ago.

Yeah..... I can see why you might think that.

[zetecspit]

Just talking to the lady wife (we do that sometimes)

We both feel sorry for poor old TM. But the way others seem to think they could get a "better deal" is laughable. . Reckon TM should invite JC and friends to pop over to meet with the EU and see what they can bash out. In fact, I bet she is wishing she had lost the last election....

I think the choices are stay in the EU, or dump NI. The latter could have very serious consequences. The former will cause issues, and even if we get a second referendum there will be a rise in the UKIP  (or worse) movements.

Saw a clip on the bbc the other day, and in many ways it sums part of the remain campaigns problem/attitude. The lady was making a very valid point. (she is a remainer too, but obviously has rather more brain that Alistair Campbell) The remainers need to put a positive case to stay, rather than pick holes with Brexit. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/46492287/alastair-campbell-told-to-shut-up-during-newsnight-brexit-debate

 

 

[JohnD]

An alarming statistic emerged over the weekend (in the Observer, actually).       Nearly three quarters of voters feel "strongly" either way on Brexit.     This contrasts with the same feeling in usual times about support for a political party, which is in single figures.   The country is split as it never was before since our Civil War, and we are not alone - France's riots don't only reflect their revolutionary tendency, they join the demonstrations in Germany, Austria and Italy to reflect the extremist movements of the English 17th century, the Diggers and the Levellers.

Those were and are just symptoms of the fermenting unrest of the time, but show that we are in the midst of a revolution, as strong as those of the 17th and 18th centuries.      The French revolution may have held that country back for a hundred years while Britain and Germany industrialised, an effect shared by the US Southern States after their Civil War.     The English Civil War is seen as having freed up Britain for that Industrial Revolution, which occurred almost in isolation, but in this global age, the UK is unlikely to fare as well when isolated from a surging European economy.

JOhn

 

[zetecspit]

Only 3/4? I guess there are a fair number who as usual have no idea and care even less.

But the world is such a different place to those civil wars. We are a global economy, pushed by many factors well beyond our borders. However, what we have in the UK today looks remarkably like what Macron is dealing with (except they are being more French about it) and probably other countries within the EU, not to mention our cousins over the pond. We are not alone. And in all honesty, I doubt there is a solution that will work at the moment. Views are just too polarised. I think we need to expect a turbulent few years, and not just the UK.

(and why do we think the EU has a surging economy? Probably looking a little positive, but surging looks unlikely)

[PeterC]

Northern Ireland is missing an enormous opportunity to transform its economy:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-could-become-singaporestyle-free-port-after-brexit-says-business-chief-mckenzie-37352340.html

Maybot appears to be incapable of thinking laterally.

Peter

[oldtuckunder]

2 hours ago, zetecspit said:

The remainers need to put a positive case to stay, rather than pick holes with Brexit. 

It was the one thing that made me angry at the time of the Referendum, as no real political party actually backed Brexit (for sensible reasons) the Brexit campaign was organised by a loose collective of public, media, individual politicians, little englanders, business leaders who were pissed off with the EU, and anyone who hated the government or the EU, but it did always come across as a broad church who wanted Brexit. The Arrogance of Cameron was to think that a Remain Campaign led by him, politicians, big business and financial pundits would by pointing out the potential problems win the argument. So whilst there were millions who were privately/publicly arguing for the benefits of remaining, the whole media presentation was public arguing for Brexit, Politicians warning of dire consequences.

Now the fact that most of the warnings about how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from the EU, and how financially damaging the consequences are likely to be have proved to be either true or looming on the horizon, is still perceived by many to still be project fear not reality, and for some unfathomable reason is being blamed on the EU trying to be Nasty to us, rather that what they are saying which is Go if you want to Go, Stay if you want to Stay, but you can't half go and fuck up the relationship of 27 other members.

So at the moment even if we managed to get to the point  where it was put to the people again to decide between 1) Cast Caution to the wind and jump with no deal 2) Accept the current worst of both worlds deal, or 3) Decide we may just have made an error of judgement and Remain.  I'm still not sure how the Remain lobby goes about getting the message across as most of the arguments are still of the things will be worse/hurt if we leave type, whereas the Brexiter's now have a huge amount of fake arguments about look how nasty the EU have been to us over the negotiations.  Its a bit like arguing with children about not touching the fire it will burn! if they have no concept about how much being burnt hurts, to them the warning sounds like project fear, until they do.

Alan 

      

[oldtuckunder]

8 minutes ago, PeterC said:

Northern Ireland is missing an enormous opportunity to transform its economy:

 

Peter that was from September (a lifetime ago) and was penned by a Recruitment Consultant (which no offence to any on this forum) is what Estate Agents aspire to if they are no good at selling houses.

There are lots of silly ideas, and the idea that either Ireland, The rest of the UK, or the EU would allow it is one of them.

The NI issue is interesting, I suspect the whole Backstop issue is being inflated by the DUP as a smoke and mirrors exercise. Their real agenda is how to frustrate, slow down the inexorable demographic change that will see NI vote to unite with Ireland within the next 2-3 decades, or possibly sooner if we crash out and NI has to choose between hitching itself to a sinking UK economy, or an Ireland still in the EU.

Alan

[rhino_mac]

6 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said:

............was penned by a Recruitment Consultant (which no offence to any on this forum) is what Estate Agents aspire to if they are no good at selling houses.

Hahaha, there is so much truth in that statement.

[Janner]

15 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

So how would you define “worst prime minister”? She’s got to be a contender.........

Though I note that call-me-dave (unworthy of capitals) is still claiming he doesn’t regret starting this sorry clusterfuck.... so he’s a contender........

Then there is tony b.liar and the Iraq war who first made me ashamed to be British, so he’s a contender.......

But no, the unending, shambolic horror of the May premiership surely has to be the worst..... and not over yet. Aaarrrrrgh!

Nick

The tony and gordon show has to be worse that ms mays antics

They;

- had no idea of what was going on, they only understood sound bites

-  raped the country's finances and the pension funds

- took us into the Iraq debacle

- free, unfettered entry to the UK to anyone and everyone, thus creating the situation we have today regarding racial tensions

 

Theresa may be trying but, no, she's not the worst yet

 

[PaulAA]

10 minutes ago, Janner said:

- free, unfettered entry to the UK to anyone and everyone, thus creating the situation we have today regarding racial tensions

 

I'm no apologist for Sly Tony, but this is not correct.

If you are referring to the 2004 Accession, which allowed entry to CEE citizens (excl. Romania & Bulgaria), this needs some context.  Firstly, the principle of enlarement was signed, sealed and delivered by the Major govt under the 'Copenhagen Criteria' in 1993.  Upon enactment in 2004, two countries, including the UK, allowed immediate residency and permit-free work for 'new' EU citizens, because the UK had a shortage of unskilled labour.  Other member states applied a progressive easing of permission to remain and work, particularly nearest neighbours Austria and Germany.

Not being a UK resident, I'm not clear which 'racial tensions' were key to the Brexit vote - a general dislike for non-Brits or something which can be specifically cured by eliminating access to Europeans?

Paul

[PaulAA]

3 hours ago, zetecspit said:

Saw a clip on the bbc the other day, and in many ways it sums part of the remain campaigns problem/attitude. The lady was making a very valid point. (she is a remainer too, but obviously has rather more brain that Alistair Campbell) The remainers need to put a positive case to stay, rather than pick holes with Brexit. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/46492287/alastair-campbell-told-to-shut-up-during-newsnight-brexit-debate

 

Clive

I saw the results of a poll reported over the weekend, suggesting that a significant number of Leave voters believe that the effect of Brexit will be to maintain the status quo.  The level of delusion is difficult to comprehend.

The difficulty with the positive case for Remain is that it is all around us - there is nothing to promise or make up.  For the young man in Merthyr Tydfil, surrounded by EU infrastructure and cultural investment initiatives who squawked "what has the EU every done for me?" the answer is that the level of capital investment in post-industrial and other under-performing areas results from the EU taking a macro-economic position, with practically no political influence.  The question the young man should have asked is "without the EU, would my elected Government in Westminster have done this for me?"  To which the answer would unquestionable have been "Of course not!"

Paul

[zetecspit]

Exactly. The remain ideology is nowhere near as sexy. More a sort of sensible approach... but somehow it needs to be made more positive. Indeed, the points above are spot on.

I still pity whoever has to continue where ms may will leave off. And in all honesty, the damage to the country is done, even if we end up staying. It will take a long time , if ever, for the rifts to heal.

 

Meanwhile, I am sill waiting for some more Mig wire (and a few tops) to arrive. I really CBA to travel 15 miles, when I can save £10 and get it delivered.....