Clutch Master Cylinder

[rogerguzzi]

Hello font of All knowledge

                                           I have bought a NOS clutch cover and a NOS release bearing (RHP) all in Unipart boxes and made in England for not much more than the crappy repro clutch cover!!!

What I want now is a NOS Clutch Plate GCP230 (20 spline) I was offered a new repro one for nothing when the gearbox was out just before the Spain trip? but decided not to fit it as the centre boss is shorter on one side by about 1/4" and the whole centre piece is a Much lighter forging?????

So did that plate fit any other car besides late MG Midgets?

I can only find repro rubbish on Fleabay and dealers!!

Unless one of you has one lying about you would sell me for less than a Kings Ransom ?? 

The one that is in has done 50,000 to 60,000 miles friction bit looked good but springs were loose in holders so pinched them up in the vice and trued the boss up where I had bent it a bit putting that Bloody heavy gearbox in on my own!! (But it got rid of the slight judder I used to get )

Roger

ps trying to work up the enthusiasm to take the gearbox out AGAIN!

[mpbarrett]

I might have one, will check this morning if I can find it in the garage. 

mike

[mpbarrett]

roger 

sorry what I have a is a GCP244, wrong size for your spit.
If anyone can use it let me know, NOS 2003 Mintex Don plate. I brought it in error from Ebay which is why its still on the shelve in my garage!

mike

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Mike

                 Bugger as they say but thank's for looking I can probably get one at Stoneleigh but I would like to get it changed before then?

Roger

[Nick Jones]

1500 Dolomite should be the same.

It’s a bit of an unusual clutch combo because it’s a “pot clutch” with that stupid raised ring. There are those who start with a 1300 flywheel and re-drill for an Escort (?) clutch assembly which is a little bigger.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

20 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

1500 Dolomite should be the same.

It’s a bit of an unusual clutch combo because it’s a “pot clutch” with that stupid raised ring. There are those who start with a 1300 flywheel and re-drill for an Escort (?) clutch assembly which is a little bigger.

All the above. Particularly the 'stupid raised ring' part.

Get yourself a 1300 flywheel and have it re-drilled for the Escort clutch. No other mods required. Right number of splines and accepts the Sptifire release bearing quite happily.

Then you can buy decent clutch components at a sensible price.

PS 1300 flywheels easy to get hold of but I have one I think if you need it. Just need to open out the crank bolt holes to take the bigger 1500 bolts.

Edited November 30, 2024 by Escadrille Ecosse

[rogerguzzi]

Hello

           You are right but it has been skimmed by me and balanced to the crankshaft!!

Nick, I think you are right and I may be onto one on Fleabay that did not sell a few weeks back so fingers crossed?

Roger

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

              Is this the Ford clutch plate you are talking about?

 

FORD X FLOW REMANUFACTURED CLUTCH DRIVE PLATE (only) 190mm X 20 Spline | eBay

Roger

[Escadrille Ecosse]

That's the one Roger.

BUT, I have only ever used it with the Ford cover and not sure if it would work with the Triumph 'pot' type cover

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             Well I took a chance and bought a NOS one off Gumtree for £19 delivered

So today I removed the flywheel from the old engine and did some careful measuring!

So here are the figures

Friction plate is 191mm o/d it fits in the Flywheel with 0.062" clearance (I think I could reduce this by 2mm before touching the metal in the middle)

Friction plate is 0,310" thick(the GT6/ Vitesse manual says 0.290"/0.270" with 950lbs pressure which I assume flattens the plate a bit? so not much in it?)

I do not have the same figures for a Spitfire 1500! 

Flywheel depth is 0,250"

Pressure plate is 187mm o/d so = 2mm underhung

pressure plate is 124mm i/d

Pressure plate upstand from mating face 0.090" = 2.3mm

The flywheel  is under cut so the pressure plate fits flat on the face.

So with a bit off the friction plate I can not see why it will not work(the springs are probably a different strength maybe a bit stronger as it is for a Ford Escort or Cortina?

If I find the friction plate is a bit thicker and would overload the pressure plate I could take a bit off the pressure plate pattern? 

So what does the collective brain think or am I talking Complete Rowlocks??

Roger the Hopeful 

ps and all good NOS for about £85 

pps I hope never to take the gearbox out ever again!!

 

[Nick Jones]

Hmm…. Ok. I think we were thinking of using the Ford pressure plate as well, which would mean either machining the raised ring off the 1500 flywheel and re-drilling for the bigger pressure plate or starting with a 1300 flywheel.

This is not say that you can’t just use the 1500 pressure plate, though it looks a bit snug. How do the OD and thickness compare with the 1500 one?

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                  I compressed it between 2 bits of aluminium angle and measured the gap and it is 0.280"/0.285" so the same as listed in the Triumph manual?

I think if I clean the lining down to the spring metal bit there would be 0.125" to 0.150" clearance!

I would like to work out the lining area as I would lose a bit on the edge.

Do you have a 1500 plate you can measure accurately? for outer and inner diameters then I could work out the friction area?

Roger

[Nick Jones]

Sounds like it should probably work then, provided there is clearance enough for the hub inside the pressure plate.

I’m afraid I don’t have any 1500 parts to measure at present. Someone else may have….

Mind you, something noted in the FrankenSpit clutch shenanigans was that not all clutch makes are identical for the “equivalent” listing and parts from different makes may/may not play nicely together!

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                Both parts are proper parts Borg & Beck cover and AP plate and Good old make bearing

I had the plate in the lathe and with a mask on and vacuum sucking the dust I used a rasp and took the O/D down to the metal middle. 

Now 188mm O/D

There is now 0.055" clearance all around so plenty clearance

Plus the plate probably has the stuff in it that non do have now begging with 'A' 

Roger

[zetecspit]

1 hour ago, rogerguzzi said:

 

I had the plate in the lathe and with a mask on and vacuum sucking the dust I used a rasp and took the O/D down to the metal middle. 

 

Roger, I am sure you know teh dangers etc, but please please:

Wash the clothes you were wearing, by themselves, several times

Wash the vacuum throughly, especially any filters

Clean up the workshop area with wet cloths, dispose of them with care.

Not so worried about you (sorry), more your offspring.....

[rogerguzzi]

2 hours ago, zetecspit said:

Roger, I am sure you know teh dangers etc, but please please:

Wash the clothes you were wearing, by themselves, several times

Wash the vacuum throughly, especially any filters

Clean up the workshop area with wet cloths, dispose of them with care.

Not so worried about you (sorry), more your offspring.....

Hello

           When I was Apprentice I worked in a boiler house that was having lagging stripped off and I mixed up Asbestos(we called it monkey muck!)

So at 80 this year I am not to worried but thanks for your concern.

Roger

ps Spitty is trying to kill us most times when we go out in it(not going to stop us !) 

pps Spain booked for June and looking at going again it September but need to check insurance although we have no problems(thankfully) but most do not like over 80's!!

ppps Its a bugger getting old so my advice is do not put things off when you can afford them(next year maybe to late?)   

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

              I have done some careful measuring and I think I will lose about 5% of the friction area because the flywheel face is under cut at the outer edge by about 2mm?

If you wanted to you could machine the under cut out and reduce the pot ring to suit then you would have the same friction area then you could fit either clutch plate.

I am not sure I want to remove the Flywheel to machine it?

I am thinking 5% loss is not much plus being NOS the friction material is probably better than the modern repro one?

Plus I noticed the spline part is shorter than the original and thinner??

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

              A couple more photos of the Ford plate(NOS)

The repro one does not have the raise pressing in it or those 4 tags what ever they are and you can see the centre boss difference? plus when I changed the cover before Spain I was offered a repro one for Free but did not like the look of it and the length of the centre boss was about 1/4" less!!!

Roger

ps I may still remove the flywheel and re machine it a bit as I have a big piece of steel that is machined and drilled to hold it in my Big lathe from when I machined it all over the only thing I am worried about is undoing and redoing up the 4 bolts with it in the car and not such good access?

pps Then it would have the same or a touch more friction area than the original but I ask my self is it worth it? its not a race car nor is the driver?

[Nick Jones]

I wouldn’t fuss about 5%!

[rogerguzzi]

3 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

I wouldn’t fuss about 5%!

Hello Nick 

                 That is what I thought and I do not want to take the flywheel off any way

So I feel a happy bunny now just the bloody hard work of taking the gearbox out to look forward to !!!!!!!!

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

s

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             Well I bit the bullet and removed the flywheel and machined the under cut out (about 0.050")

The centre boss on the friction plate is about 3/16" longer on the flywheel side and after machining it looked a bit close to the flywheel so I mounted it in the big lathe and turned it down a bit!

Now I have machined the undercut out the friction area is +5% on the flywheel side and -7-8% on cover side!

So I hope that is enough for normal driving plus after the machining this flywheel weighs about 1.5lbs less the the original on that was still on Spittys first engine(not much difference but the original one is machined all over but this one still had rough castings before I machined it last time?) 

Roger

[Nick Jones]

That should do it. 

All you have to do now is put the gearbox back in. I’d forgotten how heavy the Spit 1500 OD box is!

[Escadrille Ecosse]

10 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

That should do it. 

All you have to do now is put the gearbox back in. I’d forgotten how heavy the Spit 1500 OD box is!

All the above ^^^

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All 

                    I still have to rebuild the bloody thing as it broke the c clip again but I think a crap clutch and me not wanting to take it out before the end of the year(I need certifying ??) I could just drive around in the 8 year old Yeti in comfort and about the same mpg?? still were is the fun in that?

I may just as well sit in the armchair and watch the box and drink myself into oblivion?

Still Malta in 2 weeks for a week then Spain in June for 2 weeks   then Spain again in September again on a jolly in Spitty?( looking at a 13/60 herald for the wife of course!!)

Roger

ps the Wife said what do you want to do for your 80th and I said get the Kids and Grand kids around for a bit of a party then a bit later we will go to Spain Again!! 

In Spitty or a Herald if purchased (The poor old Vitesse is half done but I seem to lack motivation ? plus Spitty throwing a wobble Again)Bloody old cars why do we like them if used that is not just to the local pub or polished!

Spitty did about 6,000 miles between gearbox outs!(3 to 6 years of lots of people?)

Sorry small drunken rant over 

[Nick Jones]

8 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

Bloody old cars why do we like them if used that is not just to the local pub or polished!

Polish?! 

Steady on! Wash your mouth out! (With vino if you like) 

Yes, repeating jobs already done relatively recently due to crap parts is highly irritating. Having recently fitted a new clip very carefully during the OD conversion I’m certainly hoping it will last. Seemed ok to be fair - retaining its spring after fitting, which is more than could be said for the ones used on my PI box years ago. @GT6Steve saved me on that one by sourcing some Spiralocs in the US.