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All

The link below takes you to a post regarding the changes too the Register forum.

Some positive news from John and the team who have worked hard to have changes made that in turn,make the TRR forum a better place

 

https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/69246-our-forum-the-way-forward/

 

John

[JohnD]

It's all very motherhood and apple pie, until you get to

" When using this Forum, you agree not to:  ...   4.1.12 Post content that is critical of the Club, its members, staff, officials, board of Directors, Advertisers, A-Plan (TR Register Insurance) or other Club partners. "    When any self-respecting media organisation will accept criticism, even publish critical letters and posts, why should the TRR hold itself sacrosanct?

and

"4.1.14 Post content in relation to Club director elections, or other matters relating to AGM’s or EGM’s."     Internal politics, should and can be discussed, if necessary on a non-public forum.  

As far as I can tell these have not been changed, and were the reason why so many left the TRR message board, to come here, and why I don't go there any more.    What has been changed that might accommodate the refuseniks?

John

Edited April 24, 2019 by JohnD

[RogerH]

Hi John,

 I post there and if I chose to speak against the MT (aka BoD) I will, as the IRP made it one of their resolutions that the forum should be able to speak openly about the club.

The chairman stated in print that he accepted all of the resolutions -

this is when he expelled Darren, even though previous to the IRP he was set against any expulsion. Rather cowardly act in my mind hiding behind the IRP.

 

Roger

[PeterC]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

It's all very motherhood and apple pie, until you get to

" When using this Forum, you agree not to:  ...   4.1.12 Post content that is critical of the Club, its members, staff, officials, board of Directors, Advertisers, A-Plan (TR Register Insurance) or other Club partners. "    When any self-respecting media organisation will accept criticism, even publish critical letters and posts, why should the TRR hold itself sacrosanct?

and

"4.1.14 Post content in relation to Club director elections, or other matters relating to AGM’s or EGM’s."     Internal politics, should and can be discussed, if necessary on a non-public forum.  

As far as I can tell these have not been changed, and were the reason why so many left the TRR message board, to come here, and why I don't go there any more.    What has been changed that might accommodate the refuseniks?

John

My thoughts also, to a T.

Peter

[Toronto Tim]

John,

You are correct: those are the rules that have not, yet, been changed. But if you read John's post you will see that changes have been agreed and are coming (after much work, discussion and debate). 

Whether everyone thinks they have changed enough is, of course, entirely up to each person. I hope that they do, but respect everyone's own position on this.

There will be an announcement when the changes are put in place - hopefully later this week. 

Cheers,

Tim

[JohnD]

Ah!    The problem is that I won't sign up to those overberaing rules, so I cannot priogres beyond the page that lists them and requires my approval.

So I can't read what John is pointing us at, as the post he refers to is inside the TRR website.

Please John, if it's your post, please copy it here.  If it's someone else's, as kt them if you may copy it here.

I want to be able to go back to the TRR, so glad to hear ofa  ore reasonable stance from that end.

JOhn

[BrianR]

John and Peter,

While those two rules have not been totally removed they have been changed to allow more freedom , we can only hope it is enough for you all.

We have not published the rule change document that was presented to the MT  so as not to cause confusion until Wayne has had chance to update the forum site. Hopefully this will be completed soon  

Brian

[Janner]

John

I gave some thought to copy and pasting the original post by John, but came to the conclusion that it wasn't the thing to do.

John  is on Sideways, as is Tim, so what I will do is PM John and ask him if I can go ahead and do it.

 

TBH it should help calm nerves snd maybe get some dedicated TR enthusiasts back in the fold.

[foster461]

I was part of John's team along with Brian and Tim. It was a pleasure working with this team of people that have a passion for TR's, the TR Register and the TR Register forums.

The rules and the forum structure will be updated shortly. I cant say that we got everything that I wanted with the rules update but we made a lot of progress and some of the constraints are coming from outside of the club, GDPR for example. I had no idea what a can of worms this poorly thought out legislation was until I started researching it.

A lot of what we focused on was creating a better environment for the forums and a closer integration with the club leadership and the magazine TR Action. We have put some interim leadership in place to help facilitate that and these positions will be available to new candidates during the next election cycle.

Stan

[JohnD]

55 minutes ago, Janner said:

John

I gave some thought to copy and pasting the original post by John, but came to the conclusion that it wasn't the thing to do.

John  is on Sideways, as is Tim, so what I will do is PM John and ask him if I can go ahead and do it.

 

TBH it should help calm nerves snd maybe get some dedicated TR enthusiasts back in the fold.

This is John Morrison?  Member search doesn't find that name.  If you are here, JM, then you have a large expat congregation here.   You should be following the Methodist way and preaching in the open air, not hiding your words in a closed church!      Please copy your post here, so the scattered faithful may learn your wisdom.

John

Edited April 24, 2019 by JohnD

[Rod1883]

Been out all day at the Cricket (Hove) so late to this.

If indeed the rules still say you can't criticise, in an open, polite and constructive manner, then the review has not addressed the concerns that I and many had. My membership of the TRR is due in June and after 40 years it will be a difficult decision whether to renew.

I miss the Forum there and the camaraderie and friendships it created for me but how can I, with a clear conscience, sign up to rules I don't agree with - especially as one of the rules said if you don't agree, don't join!

My TRR membership is greatly diminished without the Forum.

[Janner]

All

I PM'd John today, his comment was as follows;

"thanks for taking the interest, you go ahead and put anything  at all of sideways, with my blessing."

 

Wayne is in the process of writing up details of what is being done and below is Johns post, in its entirety

John

 

Our forum - the way forward.

 

Many of you will know, that a team was set up to look at all aspects of our forum, including the rules as proposed and accepted at the AGM, in November. Following lots of feedback from forum users here and other members via TR Action, a set of recommendations was put to the MT in early March. Even before this, one excellent development was the appointment of a dedicated MT member with special responsibilities for our forum, Namely Mick Forey.

 

Following the submitted recommendations, Mick Forey, and Wayne met with Brian and John for a very long, extremely fruitful face to face meeting, where every aspect of the recommendations was discussed and explained in detail. Mick and Wayne then took the full recommendations to the MT meeting, on Saturday April 6th.

The MT voted unanimously to accept the recommended changes to the forum and the forum rules.

 

It was clear from the feedback received, that many forum users, both internationally  as well those in the UK who do not attend a local group, regard the TR Register Forum as, 'Their Group' and asked why it could not be recognised as such? We did look at this, but soon realised that to designate the forum, as another group, was too narrow, in fact what the forum has become is a;- TR Register World Wide Community.

 

 

We wished to acknowledge this, and treat our forum accordingly, so we can announce the following;- The forum will have its own coordinators to ensure the smooth, continued growth of this community, namely

A Forum Community Coordinator (FCC) A deputy Forum Community Coordinator (DFCC) and A Forum Technical Coordinator (FTC) These group of, 'Go To' folk

for anything to do with our forum will have a direct line to our dedicated MT forum Rep. Mick Forey. We all see this as a great step forward in ensuring  smooth running and growth of the forum. One of the roles of the FCC, will be to write a regular column for TR Action, entitled Forum Focus, detailing the help and advice our forum has provided in recent weeks, and pointing at specific posts of interest. The First Edition of Forum Focus will appear in TR Action 313. We hope this will convince more members to take a look at the forum and see what a friendly and helpful place it is. The main role of the TFC is to resolve questions about the functionality and administration of the forum itself. This will relieve Wayne of  a large workload and should provide a faster response to forum technical issues.

 

As an interim measure, and to ensure the smooth adoption of this new way to see our forum, John Morrison has agreed to  take the role of FCC, Stan Foster has agreed to take the role of DFCC, and Tim Burgess the role of FTC. As stated these are interim appointments and it is intended to hold elections, via a forum poll, for  all the Coordinators posts in due course, we do feel that Stan and Tims acceptance of the relevant roles really enhances the international feel of our forum, long may this continue!

 

Of equal significance are the other changes that have been made in accordance with the feedback received from fellow forumites;-

 

Three sections, namely;- TR Competition, Rallying and Car Preparation will be amalgamated into one section.

 

A new section will be incorporated into our forum, entitled, 'Out and About' it will be open to members and non-members alike. This follows the feedback that apart from the technical forum there was nowhere to showcase what members get up to with their TR's and to encourage members and non-members to join like-minded people in doing what this club is about; Getting Out and About in their TR's. So if you have been somewhere or plan to go somewhere then let people know. It's the ideal place to arrange a meet up at short notice and  then let others know what they missed. 'Alec's inn', will remain in the members only section and will be

for discussions on a wide range of subjects of interest to members.

 

Wayne is looking into changing the forum registration process. In the short term making the registration more user friendly and less intimidating, In the longer term only having a single log-in to the forum and the website members only sections. Having duel log-in has caused a lot of frustration, particularly for newer members.

 

Our forum rules, have been re-visited and amended to better suit our forum, these amendments in detail will be posted under separate title in due course.

 

 All these changes have been agreed and will be instigated forthwith, you will also understand that with the now established lines of communication between,  forum coordinators and the MT. it should be possible to ensure rapid attention to any particular issue, and to effect further change in a simplified way.

 

 

We feel that these changes are tremendous improvements to our forum, simply put they make it better, and by definition that makes the TR Register better.

 

Finally, we would all wish to acknowledge the help and support of both Mick Forey and Wayne, without this we would not have been able to make the progress we show here.

 

Now it is up to us all, to spread the word and make the forum even more welcoming to all TR enthusiasts wherever they are in the world.

[foster461]

6 hours ago, JohnD said:

This is John Morrison?  Member search doesn't find that name.  If you are here, JM, then you have a large expat congregation here.   You should be following the Methodist way and preaching in the open air, not hiding your words in a closed church!      Please copy your post here, so the scattered faithful may learn your wisdom.

John

John is registered on Sideways as chippieman which makes sense when you know of his background. John is a real trooper and has gone over and above to take advantage of the opportunity he was given to improve the TRR forums.

Stan

[JohnD]

No doubt, but I regret that without changes to those restrictive clauses, I'm as chippie as a chippieman, and won't go back to TRR Forum.  John's copied post says only that "amendments" will be published "In due course".     Hate to sound like the ERG, but promises are not acceptable.

The tranche of members of whom I am but one, who have left the forum must be sorely missed by the TRR.    I still get the newsletter of my Area Group and the last, just yesterday contained an appeal to members to visit the Forum, which was described as "this much under used and somewhat maligned section within the TR Register website"!     Underused, when 90% of households in the UK have broadband?     Maligned?   By who?  How is that TR owners are so alienated?   

JOhn    

[TR5tar]

Obviously I have a certain bias given my situation, but with most of the Reg management still in place from last year, I cannot see why there will be any major changes in attitude towards members. What is said and what is done are often two very different things. It seems to me that there is a belief that having been elected, they have carte blanche. That's all well and good in a business, but I thought it was a club I was joining, where everyone was equal and could have a say. If members are barred from criticising the management, nothing will change, which of course is exactly what those that pull the strings seem to want. 

I'll not bang on too much for fear of sounding bitter, but I'll just add that Sideways provides a good home for TR owners and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to return to the Reg forum when all our needs are catered for here.

Darren  

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by TR5tar

[PaulAA]

On 4/24/2019 at 10:26 AM, Janner said:

All

The link below takes you to a post regarding the changes too the Register forum.

Some positive news from John and the team who have worked hard to have changes made that in turn,make the TRR forum a better place

 

https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/69246-our-forum-the-way-forward/

 

John

John

I don't wish to sound negative, but Sideways is a far more welcoming and tolerant environment.  I appreciate that it is a free (internet) world and it is not an 'either/or' option, but it would be disappointing if people who registered at ST in the wake of the underhand behaviour at the TRR did so only as a temporary perch until things improved over there.

Did I miss the retraction of accusations against Darren and the apology for his expulsion?

Paul

Edited April 25, 2019 by PaulAA

[Janner]

2 hours ago, PaulAA said:

John

I don't wish to sound negative, but Sideways is a far more welcoming and tolerant environment.  I appreciate that it is a free (internet) world and it is not an 'either/or' option, but it would be disappointing if people who registered at ST in the wake of the underhand behaviour at the TRR did so only as a temporary perch until things improved over there.

Did I miss the retraction of accusations against Darren and the apology for his expulsion?

Paul

 

Paul

Hi

I must admit to a certain bias towards the TRR, only because it was the first car forum I joined.

I accepted the new draconion rules, so that I could be directly involved, I'd rather be in the TRR tent, pi55ing out, that outside, pi55ing in.  At least, this way, I can rant directly at those who need to be ranted at.  I totally ignore those draconian rules as currently formatted and have, to date, not been subjected to any censorship of any form.

The choice made by yourself, JohnD and many others, to stay out of the TRR, is as valid as any other and I will continue to try and keep the exTRR's ensconced here, up to speed

It is my understanding that the draconian rules are to be 'calmed' for want of a better word, it is accepted that the original, rapidly applied tranche of regulations was ill thought through.  I am lead to believe that one of the things Wayne is doing, is rewriting them.  We will see in due course.

Regarding your last question: No and No.  There were none.

 

I have and continue to, support Darren both inside and outside the TRR.

I did my best to keep his profile up until that final crushing and utterly befuddling blow from the panel of 3 wise men.

If I get started on that, my blood pressure will suffer, so, for now, I'll say no more.

 

John

[Janner]

2 hours ago, PaulAA said:

John

I don't wish to sound negative, but Sideways is a far more welcoming and tolerant environment.  I appreciate that it is a free (internet) world and it is not an 'either/or' option, but it would be disappointing if people who registered at ST in the wake of the underhand behaviour at the TRR did so only as a temporary perch until things improved over there.

Did I miss the retraction of accusations against Darren and the apology for his expulsion?

Paul

Paul

Sorry, missed one of your points.

You are right, the freedom we have via the internetweb thingy is to be applauded.

Indeed, it isn't an either/or option.  I'm with both the TRR and Sideways, plus a couple of M-B forums and the Kuga Owner club to name but a few. 

There will be a few who arrive here and then move on, or back.  So be it.  However, I think you will find that most ex TRR's will, eventually,  go back to the Register, whilst remaining on here, but only when the TRR has changed to suit each individual.

 

John

[PeterC]

2 hours ago, TR5tar said:

Obviously I have a certain bias given my situation, but with most of the Reg management still in place from last year, I cannot see why there will be any major changes in attitude towards members. What is said and what is done are often two very different things. It seems to me that there is a belief that having been elected, they have carte blanche. That's all well and good in a business, but I thought it was a club I was joining, where everyone was equal and could have a say. If members are barred from criticising the management, nothing will change, which of course is exactly what those that pull the strings seem to want. 

I'll not bang on too much for fear of sounding bitter, but I'll just add that Sideways provides a good home for TR owners and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to return to the Reg forum when all our needs are catered for here.

Darren  

 

Hi Darren, Your disgraceful and vindicative maltreatment by the BoD is the main reason I have  not renewed TRR membesrship ( after ca 40 years). I sense that a mild dilution of forum rules is meant to disguise the Board's expulsion decision. Until that is revoked I shall never return to contribute to the TRR forum.

Peter

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, Janner said:

 

Paul

I accepted the new draconion rules, so that I could be directly involved, I'd rather be in the TRR tent, pi55ing out, that outside, pi55ing in.  At least, this way, I can rant directly at those who need to be ranted at.  I totally ignore those draconian rules as currently formatted and have, to date, not been subjected to any censorship of any form.

John

John,

How dare you!  How very DARE you?!?     You promised not to!   By ticking the list, you signed up to: " When using this Forum, you agree not to:  ...   4.1.12 Post content that is critical of the Club, its members, staff, officials, board of Directors, Advertisers, A-Plan (TR Register Insurance) or other Club partners. "   Etc.Etc.

Far be it from me to act the lawyer, but "ranting directly at those who needed to be ranted at" is very close to, if not identical with, criticising the Club.

This is bravery beyond the call of duty, or dishonourable conduct.     Either way, the BoD will shortly invite you into a room to accept the fate of the spy or the cad, which are the same.   A bottle of whisky and revolver await.    Good luck!   Chin up, old man!

John

[Toronto Tim]

As noted above, this exercise was related only to the TRR Forum and, obviously, had no effect on Darren's situation.  I think that whole issue is a perfectly valid reason for people not wanting to be part of the TRR any longer - nothing that our team has done regarding the Forum will fix that.

However, for those who have left the TRR and/or the Forum because of things like the Forum rules implemented after the AGM, I am hopeful that the changes agreed will encourage them to return to the TRR Forum while still posting here or elsewhere (or even nowhere).

Detailed rule changes have been agreed (not just promised) - there is just a time-lag in terms of getting them installed.  As soon as that is done, it will be announced and explained.  As Stan says above, we didn't get everything that we initially proposed, but I hope that the changes deal with the big issues and allow ex-Forumites to come back and make TWO Forums vibrant and interesting places to be.

Cheers,

Tim

[TR5tar]

Thank you Peter. Your support and that of all the others will always be remembered and greatly appreciated.

With regard to the Reg forum, I think many have probably forgotten that users had already started moving to Sideways sometime before I became the target of certain people's ire. What prompted that move was the removal of "At the Bar" in a freely accessible area of the site, without any consultation with members, and without any respect for a poll of users that overwhelmingly asked for its reinstatement. I see from the announcement that "Alec's Inn" (which replaced At the Bar) will still not be accessible to all, and I know that at least some of those involved in trying to improve the situation will see this as a complete failure of the task, and rightly so in my opinion.

Somewhere along the way, the Reg has become all about the Reg. As one long standing, well known, member said to me, "it's become a self serving entity, something quite different from what it started out as". As a group leader, I felt treated like a lacky employee in the club hierarchy. Now, I don't mind being a lacky for the members of my group. Indeed, they elected me and I always saw my role as organising what they wanted and representing them. However, it was made clear to me by the regime, that I was there to promote the club, promote the club's events, and to prompt members to take up the insurance, etc. You might be aware that "guidelines" were subsequently rewritten to reflect this. But, as I pointed out, they were only guidelines. A code of conduct was also, subsequently, introduced, which states that "All members are required to promote the TR Register and its aims..." and "All members are required to respect officials and publicly accept their decisions." Anyone who remains a member is deemed to have accepted that code (was it ever ratified at an AGM?). Therefore, regardless of what might be done to put a better spin on the forum rules, members are risking expulsion from being critical of the management.

What became clear to me is that the Reg does a good job of making people believe that they cannot get along without it. One member of management even tried to kid me on that we cannot even go for a social drive together without MSA/club cover. I phoned the MSA and asked about that and was told there's no issue at all. Most in my group never bought into what we were being told, which I suppose is why along with me, the whole group was targeted and recognition of it removed. Nevertheless, we are still together as an independent and doing rather well. We had nine TRs present at our April meeting last week, whereas the group set up to take our place had three in the car park I hear.

We are now expanding what we as a group do and inviting all classics, but I suspect we'll remain Triumph at the core. With that, I will of course be promoting the benefits of this forum. 

In my opinion, it shouldn't be about clubs. We are all part of the TR / Triumph / classics community and should be working together for each other, rather than having barriers. Once a club becomes more important than the members or the cars, then it's gone wrong. Some people are obsessed with having a title and to have it they'll put friendships aside. I was told recently of a group committee member who had served for 10 years plus asked his GL whether he would be welcome to come along to a few meets (in a pub) if he left the Register. The GL said, you can come 4 times, but then have to join! Perhaps some will think this is fair enough, but I feel it's the wrong attitude. I'll do whatever I can to help any classic owner, regardless of whether they are in a club or not. 

One last point, I think the difference between this forum and what the Reg one has become is obvious. Sideways is for all. That's evident in that nothing has been said (as far as I know) to discourage users from promoting use of the Reg forum. If, however, users of the Reg forum continually promoted Sideways, I suspect they might soon find themselves in trouble. 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by TR5tar

[Janner]

40 minutes ago, JohnD said:

John,

How dare you!  How very DARE you?!?     You promised not to!   By ticking the list, you signed up to: " When using this Forum, you agree not to:  ...   4.1.12 Post content that is critical of the Club, its members, staff, officials, board of Directors, Advertisers, A-Plan (TR Register Insurance) or other Club partners. "   Etc.Etc.

Far be it from me to act the lawyer, but "ranting directly at those who needed to be ranted at" is very close to, if not identical with, criticising the Club.

This is bravery beyond the call of duty, or dishonourable conduct.     Either way, the BoD will shortly invite you into a room to accept the fate of the spy or the cad, which are the same.   A bottle of whisky and revolver await.    Good luck!   Chin up, old man!

John

 

Oops!

I think I may have been a bad boy.

Seriously though, I worked for a big American Corporation for almost 30 years.

They took constructive criticism, privatly or publicly offered, badly, but, it didn't stop a small group of us from speaking up.

In 1986, 4 weeks after joining the corporation, as I was entering the foyer of one of the then, many UK plants and met the UK HR Mngr, who had employed me, coming out.

He asked how I was finding things.  My reply was, I may have made a mistake taking the job, I can't work with these idiots, to which he said that he'd heard I was making waves.

Well, some one has to, says I, otherwise, nothing will get done.

You keep making waves, he said, we'll sort things out.  28 years later, having never had that instruction repealed, I kept making waves.

Some battles I won, many I lost.

 

I think the same principle applies here.  Keep making waves until some either listens or leaves, either way eill suit me.

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

John,

How dare you!  How very DARE you?!?     You promised not to!   By ticking the list, you signed up to: " When using this Forum, you agree not to:  ...   4.1.12 Post content that is critical of the Club, its members, staff, officials, board of Directors, Advertisers, A-Plan (TR Register Insurance) or other Club partners. "   Etc.Etc.

Far be it from me to act the lawyer, but "ranting directly at those who needed to be ranted at" is very close to, if not identical with, criticising the Club.

This is bravery beyond the call of duty, or dishonourable conduct.     Either way, the BoD will shortly invite you into a room to accept the fate of the spy or the cad, which are the same.   A bottle of whisky and revolver await.    Good luck!   Chin up, old man!

John

Hi John,

as I mentioned above; the IRP recommended that the forum should be able to criticise the club and its officers - everything.

This was immediately echo'd by default by the chairman who said he would accept ALL the findings.

The fact that the rules say otherwise is meaningless as now, according to the new rules, we can be homophobic. The previous rules specifically said we must not be.

So much  for the Porsche owners.

Get inside that tent and start p*ssing away.

 

Roger

[chippieman]

Brian, Tim and Stan

have all tried to explain via this thread that things have changed,

but it seems that there is, 'None so blind as those who will not see'

If anyone wishes to learn, then my contact details are in the back of TR Action.

John.