tr4tom Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, MennoR said: ... I now realise that you're the same guy from TR Forum: Tom Boyd, moderator! Is this simply commenting on my writing or is it a habit being a moderator? Apart from that, how on earth do you find the time moderate the TR forum ánd comment on my writing here!? Rest assured, you don't have to moderate me here. Your name is not on the S-T's staff list. Everybody with enough sense knows why I've used the words 'kicked out'. If not? Well, like the best soccer player of all time, Johan Cruyff once said: "If I wanted you to understand it, I would have explained it better!" Menno im not moderating. im stating you were not kicked out like you said! Dont think i ever had to moderate you on the tr forum to be honest, a great member to have wasn't being funny with my post at all. apologies if you think i was Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MennoR Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I'm good! Rant over. Let's have a drink at one day. Would love to see your workshop btw. Menno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr4tom Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Just now, rog1 said: Hello again Tom, I see you're doing your best to promote yourself again? It wasn't too long ago that I also seemed to lose posting ability, as Menno has, just after posting about not renewing my TRR membership! Bog off! You don't have a job or free advertising here! Ah, well done Menno, I'm just too late. Promote myself how?? What free advertising?? Menno can't post as he is not a member, not because he posted he was not renewing....... Thanks for your thoughts though, good to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster461 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour ago, tr4tom said: No, you haven't been 'kicked off' the members chat area. You are no longer a member of the club and the requirement to view/comment in members chat is membership... If you decided you didn't want to carry on your AA/RAC membership, would you expect them to still come out if your car breaks down? Sorry but incorrect wording is bloody annoying!!! Mennos English is so good we sometimes forget that it is not his first language and given where he lives it might not be his second or third either. I think Menno was clear that he understands why he has lost access to the members chat area and it was not a surprise other than the lag in terminating your membership and waiting for the process to catch up and update your forum status. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianC Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/20/2018 at 4:31 PM, TR5tar said: I put a 12 page document to the panel, along with 20+ pages of supporting evidence. PM me if you want details. Thank you Darren. A very painful read, but a well-presented, factual, and unemotional statement of the facts which the BoD and IRP kangaroo courts have clearly ignored. It's a tragedy that this has not been seen by the entire TR Register membership. Anyone involved in the management of a TRR local group easily could end up receiving the same treatment as Darren unless the management composition and attitude is radically overhauled. I guess I'll be high on the hit list already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MennoR Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I had an interesting conversation with a person who holds a uni degree in psychology, especially organizational psychology (don't know if it's with an 's' or 'z' in British English...). I told her the whole story about DC in a few sentences and her first question was: "Are these people member of a board or have they run a company for more than 8 years?" Not knowing the correct answer, I said: "Yes, most of them have run a business and or have been on the board for a pretty long time. Mostly together. (please correct me when I'm wrong) Her answer was short and simple: hubris! I did some searching and found interesting info about hubris... The Cambridge Dictionary says about hubris: Quote 1. a way of talking or behaving that is too proud: 2. an extreme and unreasonable feeling of pride and confidence in yourself: Apparently, people who are in office too long, lose touch with reality and think that all that's been said on their side of the table, is the only truth. They can no longer see other sides of a story. Frustratingly, others know that once, these people were capable of seeing and accepting other opinions. Over the years they've changed. I am sure you can name a few politicians/high school principals/CEO's/... The CEO of Lehman springs to mind... Google 'hubris' and 'leadership' and there's a whole new world opening! Menno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 Fred the Shred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidescreen Vicky Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I think you have hit the nail on the head, Menno! Vicky x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR5tar Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 (edited) I have at last had some minimal feed back on what this new allegation (instigating the misuse of proxy voting), stated in the panel's report, refers to. It seems that I'm now accused of coercing members into how to vote on their proxy forms for the club AGM, either last year or the year before I assume. Until the report was issued I had no knowledge of this fresh allegation; it was not mentioned to me by the BODs or the panel, so it's all a bit of a mystery. It's especially odd because I have never carried a proxy vote for anyone! And I have never coerced anyone. Could it be that the charges of being "controversial" (not my word) and not wanting to do certain things for the club looked too petty, so more was needed? I suspect this fresh allegation was made by the same person/s who misrepresented me in other matters. Once again I've not been told who has said this about me, so it seems like it's under the vale of confidentiality again. Interestingly, one of my members is a former high ranking police officer. He was surprised that neither he nor any other group member who wanted to speak on my behalf was called ... there were several to choose from. He was most upset by that and said it wasn't the sort of investigation that he was used to conducting. Anyhow, we had a nice meet yesterday evening, with 13 members joining us and having a wonderful time. It was our group AGM. I decided not to stand as GL given the circumstances, but I was badgered into the deputy dawg's body role, which I'm happy to do for my members. And a former GL of the group took up the reins again. We do look a dangerous bunch don't we. P.S. I took the photo. Edited November 22, 2018 by TR5tar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MennoR Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 The demise of British Leyland, the Marie Celeste-mystery and Global Warming will be on your plate as well. Just making fun of a dreadful situation. As you suggested: there must be a reason to 'bridge' the 3-month ban into a lifetime ban. That's the moment anonymous witnesses appear. Remember that I made a 'funny'(...) remark back in August? Kafka... Can't believe it has come true! BTW, I admire the guts of the people in the picture: no 'pixelated' faces to remain anonymous! Menno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, TR5tar said: I have at last had some minimal feed back on what this new allegation (instigating the misuse of proxy voting), stated in the panel's report, refers to. It seems that I'm now accused of coercing members into how to vote on their proxy forms for the club AGM, either last year or the year before I assume. Until the report was issued I had no knowledge of this fresh allegation; it was not mentioned to me by the BODs or the panel, so it's all a bit of a mystery. It's especially odd because I have never carried a proxy vote for anyone! And I have never coerced anyone. Could it be that the charges of being "controversial" (not my word) and not wanting to do certain things for the club looked too petty, so more was needed? I suspect this fresh allegation was made by the same person/s who misrepresented me in other matters. Once again I've not been told who has said this about me, so it seems like it's under the vale of confidentiality again. Interestingly, one of my members is a former high ranking police officer. He was surprised that neither he nor any other group member who wanted to speak on my behalf was called ... there were several to choose from. He was most upset by that and said it wasn't the sort of investigation that he was used to conducting. Anyhow, we had a nice meet yesterday evening, with 13 members joining us and having a wonderful time. It was our group AGM. I decided not to stand as GL given the circumstances, but I was badgered into the deputy dawg's body role, which I'm happy to do for my members. And a former GL of the group took up the reins again. We do look a dangerous bunch don't we. P.S. I took the photo. Darren, Good to know you are amongst friends locally. We'll draw a vale over the Veil of White Horse ! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MennoR Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 When the IRP was installed, people on the various forums agreed with the list of names: some even know one or two IRP members personally and they were giving a good 'review'. Now, a few weeks on, it looks as if those three men were duped or weren't that wise after all... As I said on the TR forum: they have tied their name forever to a report and a string of events that's at least questionable! I am really curious to know how those three men look back now! I don't expect them to come forward here (of course not) but as said, some folks here know them personally. Surely they must have had the opportunity to have a talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave M Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 As dangerous bunch of radicals as I've ever seen Darren. I hope they don't get hunted down by the TR security services. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MennoR Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 15 minutes ago, Dave M said: As dangerous bunch of radicals as I've ever seen Darren. I hope they don't get hunted down by the TR security services. Dave ^^^ this ^^^ hence my pixelated remark. Menno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR5tar Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I'm not so sure that many if any of them will be renewing with the Reg, so I don't think they particularly care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave M Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, TR5tar said: I'm not so sure that many if any of them will be renewing with the Reg, so I don't think they particularly care. There's a lot of us like that Darren. The problem is the Bod don't care either unfortunatly. I would have liked to go to the AGM just to see how they act but I just had an eye op so can't go. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR5tar Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I hope the eye op went well for you Dave. You could be right that the BODs do not care about the loss of a couple of hundred members, especially if they are those that make their feelings known, but here's the thing, it's often those same members who are active in the club. They speak up because of their passion for it. If those members leave and the club is just left with a few thousand who will never involve themselves, then the future isn't bright. As it happens, I'm not sure there's much of a future for car clubs with a hierarchical structure anyhow. There are FB classic car groups now that have tens of thousands of people. It all looks very egalitarian, with people coming together to organise mass events and shows. It's not subscription based either. I have a feeling that that is the way things will go. Menno's conversation with his friend with the psychology degree interested me. People often change when they are given a badge and a title, and when they've held it for a while I think some find it very difficult to see where they have made mistake. When I was about 9 or 10, like most lads of my generation I was interested in playing at being in the army. I had a book with all the insignias of rank. One day I decided to draw them and hand out badges to my friends at school. Even now, I remember how some children who were normally pretty quiet changed quite dramatically when given a high rank insignia. I was told that as a GL I was to be a manager of the group for the Reg, but that was never how I saw the role. As far as I was concerned, I was there to serve the members and help them get what they want from the group/club. Even the Group Leader title seems a bit over the top to me. For anyone interested in the psychology of authority, conformity, and obedience, the Stanley Milgram experiments that took place in the 1960s make for a fascinating read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod1883 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 Interesting thoughts Darren, especially in the first paragraph. I posted the words below on the TRR forum in response to a post that had a chart showing the 'time served' of TRR members: "The chart (albeit 7 year old data) suggests a huge churn rate. It was improving, but the fact that ~50% of members had been so for only 4/5 years or less must create a huge workload for the club. Members of 10 years standing seems to be less than 25%. I would suggest that the longer standing members are more vocal because they have more of a personal investment in the club, but as far as the club is concerned 75% of income is achieved from the others. Conversely, it is probably this 'less than 25%' that support the IWE and the local groups and other TRR events and activities and make it the club it is. An interesting conundrum for the next Chairman on how to delivery what the 'Club' and the Members want. For me it would include looking at what is required to turn the '2 or 3 year' member into a '10 plus year' member." Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster461 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Despite having read everything available publicly about Darren's recommended expulsion from the TR Register I still dont have any idea what was behind that. I see some poorly justified subjective assertions about attitude, proxy votes, VOWH leadership etc but not the one big thing that I was hoping for that a sensible person would read and say whoa, that was a terrible thing that he did and expulsion was obvious. The TR Reg BOD and the independent panel all saw something, when will the rest of us see it ? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR NIALL Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 3 hours ago, foster461 said: Despite having read everything available publicly about Darren's recommended expulsion from the TR Register I still dont have any idea what was behind that. I see some poorly justified subjective assertions about attitude, proxy votes, VOWH leadership etc but not the one big thing that I was hoping for that a sensible person would read and say whoa, that was a terrible thing that he did and expulsion was obvious. The TR Reg BOD and the independent panel all saw something, when will the rest of us see it ? Stan I don’t think we ever will Stan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Butterworth Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I think Darren would also like to see it Stan. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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