rogerguzzi Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Hello All I went and collected my block and crank today it was a bit more money than I expected but then it has had about 0.030 machined off the block While talking to the man I noticed a 6 cylinder 4 valve per cylinder twin overhead cam pent head sitting on the counter! said that looks nice he said it is a fartrari and the valve guides have to be drilled out 6 x 4 = 24 to do! The customer had supplied the valves at £150 EACH Guides £? I said how much will that cost he said about £900!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! per head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I have spent about £1100 on all parts and machining up to now only balancing to go and valve seats(still thinking of the valve seat cutters!) I think I will stick to Triumphs! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 Hello All I had chance to tinker in the garage today(after fitting a new 24 volt water pump for the house supply in the cold yesterday!)and other DIY jobs!!!!! I spent about 1 hour cleaning out my little washer tank and putting clean paraffin in so I could wash the crank and rods etc. I trial fitted the crank to the block and 1 con rod and piston to see what the deck height will be and one the one I have tried I have 0.012" pop up ? Which I think is to much ? When I collected the block and crank I was talking to the man about compression ratios etc(he used to race Mini,s they even had a dyno at one stage!) He said up to 10.5 to 1 with the 280deg overlap camshaft I am fitting should be ok? (I think I will stick to 9.5+ ) He also said to deck the pistons and not leave pop up as it may cause head gasket damage? He also said to start at No4 cylinder?(no idea why!) Another question! I have been looking at the front pulley I have and the vee is a bit worn and I could skim it! But then I was thinking!!!! what about if I machine it off and make a Aluminium one! (Rimmers sell then for a lot of money!) Is it worth the effort? Roger ps the list of jobs is getting longer I have ordered a cheap oil temperature gauge!(I am a sucker for gauges) and I did what nick said and put 4lt of water in the sump to think about a baffle?(I am glad this only a 4 cylinder engine the thought of doing a V8 or V12 make me feel weak at the knees!) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I'd consider 0.012" pushing it! Mine are 0.005" - I haven't had the head off yet to see how clean the piston is in the squish areas. Might be worth trying different rod and piston combinations? I did get some variation but only 3 - 4 thou max. Head gasket would only be an issue if overhanging the bore edge, which it should not be - and if it's doing that it'll cause other problems anyway! Don't know why start at #4. Aluminium pulleys........ needs to be the right aluminium (don't ask me which) and there have been plenty of disgruntled customers whose pulleys ate their keyways and whose seals leaked when they quickly wore a groove. Speedi-sleeve will prevent the latter and proper fitting/torquing should prevent the former - provided the pulley is made of the right alloy grade (and heat treatment state). Or were you thinking about keeping the iron centre part and grafting an alloy outer on? Quite like that idea - machine the 36-1 in there as well...... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: I'd consider 0.012" pushing it! Mine are 0.005" - I haven't had the head off yet to see how clean the piston is in the squish areas. Might be worth trying different rod and piston combinations? I did get some variation but only 3 - 4 thou max. Head gasket would only be an issue if overhanging the bore edge, which it should not be - and if it's doing that it'll cause other problems anyway! Don't know why start at #4. Aluminium pulleys........ needs to be the right aluminium (don't ask me which) and there have been plenty of disgruntled customers whose pulleys ate their keyways and whose seals leaked when they quickly wore a groove. Speedi-sleeve will prevent the latter and proper fitting/torquing should prevent the former - provided the pulley is made of the right alloy grade (and heat treatment state). Or were you thinking about keeping the iron centre part and grafting an alloy outer on? Quite like that idea - machine the 36-1 in there as well...... Nick Hello Nick I will have a play with all the rods tomorrow. I was thinking of using the centre of the pulley and grafting a pulley on to it, I had not thought of machining the trigger wheel in to it(I have already ordered one!) not sure aluminium would work well they all talk of steel?(I think! no I know it needs steel or iron for the VR type ((magnetic)) Hall type may be different) There is a lot to think about? (my old brain hurts) but it does me good! I will report tomorrow Sir! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 You are right - the trigger wheel needs to be ferrous for VR sensor. Looks like aluminium might be ok for a Hall sensor though. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hello All I have spent an interesting? day cleaning weighing and measuring con rods, piston and pop up,s I have found by putting the lightest piston on the heaviest rod I can get them within 0.3g of each other! (which will do me) I have numbered the rods and pistons as sets now and that,s how they are staying! I then assembled them in the bock and measured deck height they are all within the +0.015" to +0.018" range! So I think I will machine them to give +0.005" (then check the overall weights again) I have mounted the block sideways on the engine stand as suggested on here and it is much better except I keep falling over the front wheels as they stick out much further than the block with it mounted this way(Or is it me being clumsy?) Roger ps all this measuring takes for ever! or am I just SLOW? (still I was taught measure twice cut once!) I remember an old Technical drawing teacher saying if you forgot to show the fixings on a plan, What you going to do spit on it and wait for it to rust in to place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Where have the two missing cylinder gone? Ah I see saving on the 50% extra measuring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, oldtuckunder said: Where have the two missing cylinder gone? Ah I see saving on the 50% extra measuring! Hello Alan Plus all that EXTRA cast iron! this one is soaking up funds!(Still better I spend it than the kids?) I do not want another 50% Plus I can just pick the empty block up if I tuck my socks in! Roger Edited January 18, 2018 by rogerguzzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Well, that block looks just like my old 1300 Herald one (green hammerite). Fairly sure it isn't though as that was a small crank 1300 and last seen in Perth WA (though recent news suggests it may now be homeless having been ousted by a 6). 4 cylinder blocks are dead light when bare. I have been known to pick up a bare 6 cyl block but prefer not to! Don't forget to mark the pistons somewhere else before you machine the markings off the top! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Hello Nick I have marked the pistons and rods with paint and marker pen (pistons inside) I have been looking at the pulley it has a wear ridge were the seal runs! But if I machine the vee part off and replace it with an Aluminium one I could remove a bit off the crank end so the seal sits on a different part. I can re position the vee to suit after I fix the blank on. I think this Aluminium would be suitable? and 25mm would be enough. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium-Round-Bar-Rod-3-16-8-dia-5mm-200mm-Various-sizes-and-lengths/281404474552?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=580431555461&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 https://www.aircraftmaterials.com/data/aluminium/6082.html What do we all think? Roger ps or fit a speedy sleeve? https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Engineering-Parts-Shaft-Repair-Sleeves-Imperial-Shaft-Repair-Sleeves/c4713_4847_4850/index.html Edited January 18, 2018 by rogerguzzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I'd speedy sleeve it...... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 29 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: I'd speedy sleeve it...... Nick Hello Nick I think you are right but you do not have a BIG lathe! I think I may give it a quick clean up of the vee and make a decision! I have enough to do really I just get side tracked!(easily bored!) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 21 hours ago, Nick Jones said: I'd speedy sleeve it...... Nick Hello Nick I have decide on the Speedi Sleeve I found a cheap one on Fleabay it will not be SKF probably one of these https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Engineering-Parts-Shaft-Repair-Sleeves-Imperial-Shaft-Repair-Sleeves/c4713_4847_4850/index.html But bought this one its cheaper than the Aluminium to make a new pulley and less work and Stainless steel! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shaft-Repair-Sleeve-Speedi-Sleeve-Imperial-Sizes/301388131740?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=600365559049&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 I am machining the rough casting all over so it should be very near balanced? I have mounted on a mandrel so I know it runs true to the bore in all planes! Roger ps see what I mean about getting bored and side tracked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 How nice to have the time.......... you've obviously managed to avoid getting involved in the parish council! Did you find that it is fairly true from the factory? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 18 hours ago, Nick Jones said: How nice to have the time.......... you've obviously managed to avoid getting involved in the parish council! Did you find that it is fairly true from the factory? Nick Hello Nick One of the ONLY perks of being OLD and retired Yes the vee was true but all the unmachined casting ran out! so I have machined it all over(probably a waste of time) but I had to machine it to fit the trigger wheel! I recon now it is within 0.001" all over! so should be quite close to balanced? The Speedi Sleeve arrived today so I have fitted that as well(no more rust!) I was un branded just with their own name on the fitting leaflet. I have just got to decide were to fit the VR sensor I am fancying the timing chest cover(I saw a photo on this site I think of one fitted like that? must find it) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 This is what my PI one looked like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoie Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Roger On my Spitfire I needed to move the trigger wheel as close to the pulley-V as possible to clear the steering linkage below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoie Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Another picture showing Spitfire lack of space behind crank pulley and lower steering linkage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 17 hours ago, Nick Jones said: This is what my PI one looked like That's about where I have ended up. Of course one of the differences between Spit and 6 cyl pulleys is that the Spit doesn't have a harmonic damped pulley so you can mount off the back face, if you did that on a 6Cyl pulley you would have to fix outside the rubber ring, unless you welded close to the inner. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I fear that adding the mass of a trigger wheel to the outer could changes the harmonics of the damper and ruin its damping ability. If time a d rubber rot hasn't done so already. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) Yes that's what I meant, but forgot to say! Alan Of course if I'd tried saying it in 144 chars on Twitter, it would have had no meaning at all, and at worst might have started a world war. Edited January 23, 2018 by oldtuckunder extra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/21/2018 at 8:38 AM, aoie said: Hi, Like it. Nice n clean and no rust. Do i see a dizzy & a coil pack? Cheers, Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 22/12/2017 at 1:54 PM, rogerguzzi said: Hello Alan How are you going to use that collet and holder? in a drill press? Found another use for the collet and holder. Could mount the valves in the lathe and clean and polish carefully without risking touching the seat faces! Now for a careful Lap. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 29/12/2017 at 11:28 AM, rogerguzzi said: The Mini valve stem seals have arrived but having looked at them I think I will use the VW ones. The VW ones are 2mm shorter and the seal is for an 8mm stem The mini ones I have have a much smaller stem hole (maybe 7mm or less 1/4"?) they do need less machined off the guide but by my measuring the groove that needs to be cut is just as deep if not more! (would be just as weak at that point) Out of experience now! I think I can say don't use either! buy the CW ones they are the right size. Being as much as cheapskate as any one I thought I'd order a set of the VW ones as they looked nicely made, and also a set of the Mini ones as they are cheap! Fortunately the VW ones have a firm/solid stem which will not fit my existing machined guides, that were machined for the Reizn Seals (which I couldn't use because they won't work with double springs) but fortunately were a perfect fit for the CW ones. So OK I'll use the Mini ones, they are also a perfect fit on the guide, I thought they were a tad tight on the stem, but thought well they should work. So valves all installed and using my normal hammer method to tap the valves to make sure no colletts were going to go pop when in use, I suddenly noticed that the seals had moved up the valve stem. Mini ones are no good they have an unstretched ID of 5.5mm so just grip the 7.9mm valve stem too tightly and lift with it, the VW are also no good as they have an unstretched ID of 7.25 and I think still a tad tight, whereas the CW one have an ID of 7.75 which seems to be about perfect for a 7.9mm valve stem. Oh well only 6 valves to disassemble and reassemble! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 Hello All After thoroughly cleaning the block (all core plugs out and oil gallery plugs ) after drilling center oil way out larger and drilling the gallery out from end to end 11 mm. I fitted the camshaft bearings and they are spot on size Checked with my go and no go gauge. Then I had a Numpty moment I fitted the camshaft and retainer plate and all the lobes were to far off center and I thought B***er Newman have made a bad camshaft !! Then (you are ahead of me) I realized I had not fitted the front engine plate(0.125" thick) panic over they are just off center as should be! So progress? all core plugs back in , just need the crank back now? Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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