oldtuckunder Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 OK if all goes to plan will be going for first start tomorrow, just in a bit of conundrum about how to treat any bedding in process. In effect its last years engine that was run in properly but with a reground crank and new rods. So Cam, followers, pistons, rings, bores etc shouldn't need anything special this time. It's obviously been cleaned within an inch of its life, and assembled with plenty of lube. So I don't think I need to treat the cam to a break in run, or worry too much about glazing the bores. So my plan was that a gentle 50 miles or so to let the shells and crank get to know each other, and to wash out any assembly lube and then drain and change filter, and would hope that its good to go. Anyone any other thoughts. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esxefi Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 sounds ok. the crank pins and shells in reality shouldn't touch each other and are supplied with oil from first start so there should be no wearing in required unlike rings and valve gear.but it wouldn't hurt to take it easy for a few miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 First run up some oil pressure with the plugs out and the coil disconnected. Minimises stress on the bearings. The pop them in and go for first start. If you consider the rest of the engine run-in, then as you say. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatter4 Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Agreed (all of above). Take a recording of the noise to inspire me to complete mine....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 6, 2016 Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 Thanks guys, I'm actually going to use the reverse drill approach on the oil pump first to make sure that all the pipes, filter and galleries are primed, then I'll go for a gentle crank, just to make sure there aren't any nasty clonking noises and get a bit of oil up to the rockers, and then give it a whirl. May not quite make it tomorrow (have to take mother for birthday lunch) but we will see! Hoping to have it on the road this weekend and down to Castle Combe on Tuesday for the TR day with a following wind. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 May the Force be with you....... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 Well almost got there but chickened out, got all the fluids in and the oil primed with a drill (seems to take about 1Ltr to fill the system) but as I still had to time in the distributor and recalibrate both the wideband sensors I thought I'd leave those till daylight, a clear head, and be easier to spot the leaks. Nearly there though! OTU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nang Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 When you get her going I'd go for a nice long run...100km non stop if you can..Try not to find too many hills or let engine labour. Keep an eye on the water temp and if you have one fitted, the oil pressure gauge. Happy motoring. Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 Well failed so far! 3 problems, 2 unexpected, and one of my own creation that I'm almost too embarassed to admit at my age unless it makes someone else double, triple check when they are doing it. Initially looking good, filled the oil galleries with the drill, timed in the distributor drive gear and span over with plugs out, on the strobe the timing was smack bang on and the oil pressure came straight up to 75psi so was feeling good. Put the plugs in and problem one hit, with a new battery the old bendix starter that had never given a problem before was struggling, thought it was a battery so hooked up a slave but it was still like turning treakle, and a bt of investigation seem sto show that the bendix is sticking in, and then slowly releasing. Been debating about ordering/fitting a high torque unit for the last two years but as the old unit worked (until now) it sort of got sidelined. Anyway starter off (pig off a job) little bid of lube on the bendix, bench test and it works, refit and whilst not spinning as I would like, at least the bendix is spinning back out. Next problem turn on fuel pump, and petrol starts pouring out of the carbs, both float valves had stuck or had some filth in them, so it was carbs off float bowls off and a clean and refit. By this time late Friday evening I had had enough and decided to leave the final start until this morning. Woke up about 6 a.m. in a cold sweat, god knows wise thinking about cam timing, but I know as I had been setting the tapped clearances and timing the distributor in there had been something that was nagging at me but I couldn't put my finger on it, and everything I checked seemed to be OK. OK I shouldn't admit this as it makes me look like an idiot, and in my life I never done it before, but pulled the rocker cover turned the engine over on the crank pulley and watched, everything seemed OK, until I got into the cycle and the penny dropped! why was the inlet valve fully open at TDC? Utter stupidy that why! and it took me half an hour to work out what was wrong. I had set the dial gauge up on #1 valve not #1 inlet valve when setting up the cam, so had carefully ensured that #1 exhaust valve was fully open 110deg after TDC not #1 inlet! I then thought shit when I cranked this over with the plugs out I must have smashed the inlet valves into the top of the pistons, especially as I have a higher lift inlet profile, fortunately as visual inspection though the plug hole with a torch showed that at maximum lift there is about .030 between the valve and the piston crown so I hadn't wreaked the engine, bit close oh so close!. Anyway given I hadn't at least fitted the bonnet, draining and removing the rad and being able to get straight on the front of the engine means that at least today I have been able to get at and remove the timing cover, and as luck would have it follow the recent threads on making a plug modified piston stop (yes turning off the swage in a lathe works great) and a piece of 8mm stud threaded through the middle with a couple of lock nuts, and I had the crank back on true TDC and could then time the Cam in correctly. (yes this time quadrupple checked!) Ran out of time this evening, so hopefully tomorrow can find time to get back together and see if the starter want's to play ball. If it does there is a fighting chance to get to Castle Combe on Tuesday, if not then a co-drive in the TR8 will have to do. Not going to rush it as it appears I make mistakes! and as first Hill Climb is Gurston on 17th that's more important that wizzing around Combe in it. Alan (feeling stupid) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esxefi Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 yes it's one plus point :mellow:about the bathtub chamber. unless the head has had a 'serious' skim cam chain/drive failure/misalignment generally leaves the head and pistons unscathed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 As mentioned these are non-interference engines unless they have the most amazing head skim/valve lift so I reckon you'll be fine. We've had a number of confessions to this particular error in the past, myself included, though I thing you may be the first to actually try and start the thing. Suspect you'll find your starter is fine...... You did refit the earth strap, right? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 10, 2016 Author Share Posted April 10, 2016 As mentioned these are non-interference engines unless they have the most amazing head skim/valve lift so I reckon you'll be fine. We've had a number of confessions to this particular error in the past, myself included, though I thing you may be the first to actually try and start the thing. Suspect you'll find your starter is fine...... You did refit the earth strap, right? Nick She Runs! First turn of the key after putting plugs back in after a quick crank with them out and fuel off to circulate a bit of oil! And dropped into a beautiful 900 rpm tick over. Got a couple of problems, the first a bit academic The oil pressure is too high, this engine always had good oil pressure circa 75 psi at tickover when cold (even with a rotating BE) I had hoped with all the mods and bigger clearances that this would actually drop, but according to the gauge I now have 80psi (on a 10w-50 semi synthetic that I was going to dump after the first 100 miles) at cold start up and it doesn't seem to drop as the engine got warm (well let say the water got hot as I only had it ticking over for 5-10 mins whilst I checked all the new multiple oil lines for leaks) Which is the second problem the water got too hot much too quickly, or rather some of it did! So I'm wondering if I either have an air lock or if the water pump has decided to pack up during down time. Symptoms, engine gets warm, thermostat cover and top hose get hot (the fact that the top hose is very hot makes me think that the thermostat has opened, top of the rad close to top inlet pipe hot, rest of rad and bottom hose stone cold. This is a brand new re-cored rad! So the symptom is that water isn't circulating. Anyway can't do any more tonight, will try a bit of forced filling tomorrow with the thermostat out and also check that the thermostat is actually working, but can't work out how to test that the pump is actually pumping if there isn't any flow through the rad. Any suggestions? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esxefi Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 if you remove the stat as you say then with the engine running you should see water flowing if you take off the rad filler cap straight from cold,that would suggest the pump is working ok. air pockets can take a while to be expelled and rise to the top with a 'closed' cooling system such as that of the triumph design(a good reason to fit a header/deaerator tank if rules allow). could loosen top hose clip and watch for air release as engine warms up,but be careful of coolant boiling and blowing out of hose,watch the temp gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 False Alarms! Just a great big air lock, funny never had one before on fresh fill on the Vitesse, but I guess I'm looking for problems at the moment! Anyway now sitting at a steady 80C with the fan cutting in and out nicely to maintain it at that temp. And oil pressure when the engine is really warm not artificially hot, and the oil gets hot, is now hovering on a Steady 45psi 3bar at tickover which I am far more comfortable with. One tiny oil weap from one of the two remaining gallery plugs (the one behind the dip stick) but the multitude of new connections seem to be good. Seems like at tickover from stone cold it takes the oil about 15-20 mins to get up to temperature, about to finish the oil temp gauge wiring to check this. Decided that with all the bits and pieces left to do (like fitting the bonnet) that rushing to get it done, and get some miles on it, and then change the oil again before Castle Combe tomorrow is stupid, so I'll just have a day off tomorrow and play in my co-drives TR8, and do everything steadily before Gurston next Sunday. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Installing a header tank/deaeration loop was the one single most effective mod I ever did to my cooling system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Ah, Gurston - will have to try and get to that - only about 45 mins from here. Glad the temperature issues are resolved. I also don't generally get air-locks with the Vitesse, though have had issues with thermostats that seal too well and don't have air bleed holes resulting in an airlock under it. Agree about the header tank and de-aeration loops though this seems to be more important on GT6s than Vitesses - don't really have temperature control issues on mine, though this is only road use and mostly <30ºC ambient. Oil pressure sounds good - though I respectfully suggest that the oil is not "fully hot" until you've done about 30 minutes between 3700 and 4000 rpm (for the sake of argument we'll assume this took place in 4th gear!) - bet you don't get 45psi hot idle then! In Steve's case you can probably double the rpm figures and up the ambient temperature by about 30ºC. Ambient was below 0ºC here Saturday night. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Oil pressure sounds good - though I respectfully suggest that the oil is not "fully hot" until you've done about 30 minutes between 3700 and 4000 rpm (for the sake of argument we'll assume this took place in 4th gear!) - bet you don't get 45psi hot idle then! After a day off at Combe finally got wiring finished and bonnet back on so could just find time for a first 20 min run early this evening. With the oil temp gauge working, a few startling results to me. Was a nice warm spring day today so engine wasn't stone cold, had it ticking over after staring up and after about 5 mins water was up to temp 80C and fan was cutting in and out. Oil Temp 50C! after about 15 mins at tickover oil had climbed to a massive 59C. Ok out for a first shake down run around the lanes, just taking it gently listening for things falling off, crank hitting the new windage tray, watching the gauges to see if the oil pressure fell like a stone as one of the new pipes burst (you know what I mean) but taking it gently no more than around 3-3.5K after 20 mins driving finally got the oil up to 75C after which point it stopped climbing, which says you need to put a lot of work in to get engine oil temp up to nearly working temp (which I'm taking as 80C). So warm engine, oil at 75C, oil pressure settles at tickover at 2bar 30psi and flips straight back up to 75psi at 2K, so I think I'm happy with that. The only thing I'm not happy about is I have an oil drip where I have never had one before, when hot I have a steady drip, like a drop every 30secs from one on the bottom bolts joining the bell housing to the engine plate, so I either have a crappy new rear crank seal, or the gearbox (that was rebuilt winter 2014/15 has decided to start leaking from the front seal. All oils are new so no clue on the colour. So I think all I can do before Gurston on Sunday is put a 100 miles or so on it, change the oil and see if it goes away (wishfull thinking), or see if it gets worse (probably). If its still leaking then I think I have to assume the worst that its the rear crank seal. As removing the whole engine/gearbox assembly is such a pain, Just pondering if I can remove the gearbox from inside (I could when I was supple and young) remove the clutch and flywheel, remove the engine backplate, and then change the seal, and if I can would I ever be able to stand up straight again! Slightly disapointing day Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetecspit Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 You were at CC Tuesday? wish I had known, I was there doing my best (but that still wasn't great) in the yellow spitfire. And what a downpour in the afternoon! Which TR8 were you in, I noticed blue, red and black at various times on the circuit with us..... Anyway, as you were.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 You were at CC Tuesday? wish I had known, I was there doing my best (but that still wasn't great) in the yellow spitfire. And what a downpour in the afternoon! Which TR8 were you in, I noticed blue, red and black at various times on the circuit with us..... Anyway, as you were.... Blue one about 3 down in the paddock from you, we briefly spoke but of course didn't know who we were Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 The only thing I'm not happy about is I have an oil drip where I have never had one before, when hot I have a steady drip, like a drop every 30secs from one on the bottom bolts joining the bell housing to the engine plate, so I either have a crappy new rear crank seal, or the gearbox (that was rebuilt winter 2014/15 has decided to start leaking from the front seal. All oils are new so no clue on the colour. Well tracked the source of the leak down, its rear crank seal :-( Stopped of at local garage and squirted in 2floz of their Yellow flurodising (well something like that) air conditioning leak test dye, and took it for a 70 mile run (I'm going to add a note back on the BE Failure thread about oil temp observations) and then back to the garage to use their infrared torch. Not a leak anywhere Except! the front of the rear engine plate lit up like the northern lights. It has a micoscopic layer of oil all over it below sump/block joint line its just so clean I couldn't see it before and it collects around the bottom two plate/bellhousing bolts and then every now and then drops a drip. My impression is that its getting better after the run i.e. far fewer drips (but it could be wishfull thinking). I think its just marginal if I can leave it or not, so I'm going to give it a good clean up in the morning take it for another 50 mile spin, stop off at the garage and try and use a ramp and the torch again and see what its like, and if I can detect better where its coming from. After that I'll do the oil and filter change using the racing oil, and see what the drip is like after another run. With a bit of luck I may just get away with it until I can find time to pull the whole lot out again and change the seal. So many other projects sat in the summer queue! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 PS apart from getting the car wet (I think it saw more rain today than its seen in the last 40 years) everything else on the shake down run went perfectly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Sounds pretty positive to me - that's the oil pressure I'd like to have......... Except the oil leak. First - that sounds like too much oil for a gearbox leak unless you've really over-filled it. Your nose will usually tell you if it's gear oil and also it tends to drip from the drain hole on the bottom. Second - are you absolutely sure that the leak is not from higher up and running down the block/backplate and dripping from the bell housing bolt merely because it's the lowest point? Possible culprits including the rear of the rocker cover gasket or head/block join, the oil gallery plug on the back of the head or the rearmost main oil gallery plug. The latter produced exactly the same symptoms on mine last summer - and for a while I really thought it was coming out of the bell housing as clean oil on a clean block is quite hard to spot. Third - if it is really a leak from the back of the engine into the bell housing, then the suspects are the crank oil seal, the oil seal housing (you put a copper washer on the top bolt right?) and the end plug for the main oil gallery. I suppose the core plug in the back of the cam-way is a possibility too. You can of course remove the gearbox from inside the car. On a non-OD car it's almost easy. Less so on an OD car (esp J-type). Even possible with a fat Toyota box. Admittedly it does make me feel rather old afterwards. I've not done it that way for several years either. Best of luck and hope to meet you Sunday Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 Second - are you absolutely sure that the leak is not from higher up and running down the block/backplate and dripping from the bell housing bolt merely because it's the lowest point? Possible culprits including the rear of the rocker cover gasket or head/block join, the oil gallery plug on the back of the head or the rearmost main oil gallery plug. The latter produced exactly the same symptoms on mine last summer - and for a while I really thought it was coming out of the bell housing as clean oil on a clean block is quite hard to spot. Third - if it is really a leak from the back of the engine into the bell housing, then the suspects are the crank oil seal, the oil seal housing (you put a copper washer on the top bolt right?) and the end plug for the main oil gallery. I suppose the core plug in the back of the cam-way is a possibility too. You can of course remove the gearbox from inside the car. On a non-OD car it's almost easy. Less so on an OD car (esp J-type). Even possible with a fat Toyota box. Admittedly it does make me feel rather old afterwards. I've not done it that way for several years either. Best of luck and hope to meet you Sunday Nick Likewise for Sunday! Likewise removing box from inside (that's a job for the young ones!) mind you I haven't seen my chiropractor for a couple of years, guess I could book a course of treatment before starting, or have him on standby. Yes the oils not emerging from the bell housing/plate joint from the dye test its a film on the outside of the engine plate (sump side) collecting at the bolt and dripping, its not coming down from any higher up on the sides/top than the sump line, so it has to be either crank oil seal, rear main gallery plug, or cam gallery core plug. I'm 99% certain its not the latter, but it could be a 60:40 judgement call on the other two. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted April 15, 2016 Author Share Posted April 15, 2016 Haven't found the source but stopped the drip at least for the moment, so we go to Gurston! I'll let you know how and if it really worked on Monday. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Proof he made it to Gurston and completed four timed runs......... Sounded good and seemed to go well too. Also dropped less oil on the track than a certain Sprite - no idea how he was allowed to proceed as they had the cement dust out at Carousel after all 3 of this runs we saw! Anyway, it was great to meet you Alan and to view the car, which shows many signs of years of careful development and sports all kinds of thoughtful mods. I may have to plagiarise some of your ideas....... Trust you made it home without incident. Nick PS, I've got more "action pics" if you are interested, though not of a great standard. Happy to mail them if you PM me your address Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now