Plenum Manifold To Throttle Bodies?

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                  All parts clean of course yes make a paste and paste the joints then when you are heating the job up heat the silver solder rod up(carefully!) and dip it in the flux and it will stick.

Then away you go

I just made it seem easy didn't I ?  but if you watch someone who can do it it does look easy!

The trick is enough heat in the job to melt the solder but not to much that it over heats and runs away or oxidizes!

Roger

ps nerves of steel required and practice on scrap it may seem a waste of money(I know that will hurt) but not easy to separate when done wrong

[spitfire6]

The trick is to master JB-weld & cold weld.

Lasted two years and fell to bits. I leave brazing, welding & soldering to somebody else unless it means <60Watt electic and only copper. LOL.

[Nick Jones]

9 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

The trick is to master JB-weld & cold weld.

 Not on a fuel rail holding back petrol at 3 Bar thanks...…..

I know that in this modern world adhesives are held as miracle technologies.  In my world though, disappointments outnumber their successes.

[spitfire6]

9 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

 Not on a fuel rail holding back petrol at 3 Bar thanks...…..

I know that in this modern world adhesives are held as miracle technologies.  In my world though, disappointments outnumber their successes.

JB weld & waterpump modification = help from AA two years later in December. In the rain. No heating. 10% battery on phone. Got to watch two young ladies so not all bad. 

[2.5piman]

hello Nick,

silver soldering is one of the easiest processes to use as the solder flows so well once everything is up to temperature. I often use it to join dissimilar metals, eg, brass to stainless. (You can also braze them but that is harder as the brass is molten at the join.) I do have the benefit of oxy acetylene which is better than mapp as it is hotter and more concentrated.

A close fit of the mating parts is required but i'm sure you know that?

Alec

[2.5piman]

Hello Nick,

 

just to clarify, better meaning easier in this case.

 

Alec

[Nick Jones]

Thanks Alec. I’ve made everything so it more or less “snaps” together and each joint has a crevice for the capillary action to work on.

Need to work up a couple of practice pieces.....

[mtrehy]

Hey Nick,

Looking good. The last efi 6 I did the rail quite similar to yours except in aluminium as I have ac tig. It's a lot of work and I decided with the efi I am doing on this next one that I'd use a billet rail. I think I paid £20 including delivery from China (ebay). In my opinion it's the best option, mark out the injector locations, drill, csk, ream etc. Rail bore is 17.5ish so takes a 1/2 pipe thread tap so you have loads of end connection options.

The solid part of the rail is 1/2" thick so easy to drill and tap into that to make fixing points etc..

Anyway, just a thought. No reason why yours won't be perfect.

 

 

[Nick Jones]

That looks nice.  I did use that type of fuel rail when I did my PI conversion.  At that time it was only available from Ross Machine in the US.  The rail itself was quite fairly priced but the shipping was a bit of a shocker.  I bought several lengths and did a few of them to cover costs.  Was fortunate enough to have the use of a mill with digital read out and the proper Ross Machine injector pocket cutter, which made it very quick and easy to produce a perfect result.

Didn't realise there are more reasonably priced sources now.

My soldering test pieces didn't go that well..... but I've learned alot.  Actually having more trouble with too much heat/lack of controllability and cooking the flux.....

[mtrehy]

How they can do that and ship it and make money is beyond me:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Fuel-Rail-Raw-Extrusion-Dash-8-500mm-Length-1-64-Feet-Aluminum/153117047846?hash=item23a67cbc26:g:MGYAAOSwk69bWuX9

 

I'm not sure what benefit the injector pocket cutter would give. I use a 13.5 reamer and basic chamfering tool

[Nick Jones]

44 minutes ago, mtrehy said:

I'm not sure what benefit the injector pocket cutter would give. I use a 13.5 reamer and basic chamfering tool

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/injectortool.html

A perfect pocket in about 10 seconds.  Repeatable every time.  I agree it's not essential for low volume work (one offs) and at the price they are now you'd need to be doing MANY to justify the purchase, but it was a very nice thing to use.

If the Chinese were to knock them out for £ 20 too, I'd buy one.  I dunno how they do the fuel rail for the price either.  Think I might buy one though - thanks for the link!

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

               I recon a half decent machine shop could grid a 15/16mm drill down to do that!

The drill would be cheap but how much they would charge for grinding?

Roger

[Escadrille Ecosse]

I would think that the material and extrusion cost for the 0.5m of rail would be in the order of a couple of quid in reality as they'll have the kit already and they're just covering the marginal cost of production and keeping people busy.

I don't have access to a machine shop any more, just the pillar drill in the garage so I'd be tempted to buy the cutter. Even at £20 a pocket if only making one rail, just to save the stress of that last operation after hours of work!

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

                I know this may be a daft question but cant you just make a fuel rail out of rectangular aluminium bar?

Other than looking pretty!

Roger

[spitfire6]

AliEx has throttle bodies cheap.

Fuel rail & fuel rail things as well!

[mtrehy]

you can produce a perfect hole in the rail with nothing more than a 13.5 reamer. 

 

My process

 

Mark out

Drill 7mm through to extrusion bore

Drill 13mm about 11mm - set a depth stop on your machine so all depths will be the same as the first one

Ream 13.5 to bottom of 13mm hole

Little chamfer

Rinse and repeat for the other 5 holes.

You could do it with a pillar drill no problem. i reckon at a push and with care you'd get it done with a cordless drill.

 

[mtrehy]

I have previously made one from aluminium box and some turned bosses but it's a lot of work when you can get an extrusion for £20 and don't have to make and weld the bosses. I also don't claim to be great with the AC Tig so would rather not be tig welding fuel joints.

[Nick Jones]

Well, it’s been a while. I did eventually get my fuel rail TIG welded by a mate who does it for a living. He did a lovely job…

Meanwhile, the vexed question of whether there any chance of the runners and TBs fitting in the car.  I’ve been avoiding this as the only sure way it to bolt them on the car, which means taking it to pieces.  I finally did this this afternoon. Actually the existing arrangement comes off in one chunk in only 15mins, so dunno why I’ve been worrying about it.

Hmm, kind of….

Throttle pot damn close to bulkhead and clutch bits at the back……

This with the TBs oriented as BMW intended. However, they are simple butterfly valves with no injector pockets, so maybe we can just turn them around…..

Yep, that helps. Question is, does changing the orientation matter? It swaps the function of the vacuum tappings an breather ports around, but I can deal with that. Only other effect I can see is the butterfly angle will tend to point the flow at the top of the runners rather than the bottom….. Main flow in the head port will be along the floor - but they are almost 200mm apart 

[Nick Jones]

Purely as a visual….. bonnet won’t shut without shortening the ram pipes….

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Progress there Nick.

Throttle butterflys are always bottom 'in' top 'out' I think. Probably more important for carburettors than injection to try and keep flow to the bottom of the inlet runner to catch fuel drop-out. Depending of course where you plan on fitting the injectors.

But here's a thought. If they are 'just' throttle bodies. Can you not flip the throttle pot to the front and then flip the whole TB assembly so the inlet becomes the outlet as it were, which would put the butterfly orientation as designed??

Presumably more faffing with the pressure tappings but might sort your problem.

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Escadrille Ecosse

[Nick Jones]

Well... it's a dry manifold - in theory - though maybe entirely not given batch fire and reversion, which is arguably the main reason why I'm doing this!

I'm not 100% I understand what you are saying about positioning, but if you are saying flip about short axis to put the pot at the front, then rotate around the long axis to return the flow direction to BMWs original flow plan..... the drawback (I think, I'm loosing the plot without it in front of me) is where the idle screws end up - the bloody TT designers would love it...... anyone who has to twiddle them (me probably), not so much.....

Possibly I could find a smaller pot and mod the body.  The current one is a monster with twin tracks and not electrically ideal either - though I can get around that part and it could even be an advantage if I find I have to go alpha N.

[thebrookster]

AHH, goody goody!

Rest assured I am watching your developments avidly Nick, with the intention of following sometime this next year!

Might need to buy all the bits first lol. One question for you (of many, no doubt), did you need to use parts from all three of the throttle body sets? Or can you get away with two sets?

Phil

[joeyg]

I saw this manifold at a car show this summer. Well made and complete. The seller has been in the TR frame business for a long time , now expanding the offerings https://www.rat-co.com/tr-4a-5-250-6-products/fuel-injection.

Triumph Motor Cycles makes a 3 cylinder engine. the throttle bodies come with a fuel rail, pressure regulator and throttle switch in 3 throttle body package.

[Jdowson]

Here's my take on the triumph triple throttle bodies.  Engine running and car drives. Just need to get out and do some tuning, delayed due to family  matters but hope to restart soon. 

[Nick Jones]

6 hours ago, joeyg said:

 

I saw this manifold at a car show this summer. Well made and complete. The seller has been in the TR frame business for a long time , now expanding the offerings https://www.rat-co.com/tr-4a-5-250-6-products/fuel-injection.

 

Interesting link. Thanks. Probably quite TR5/6 specific. Might just fit on a big saloon (or might hit the inner wing! Shock turret). Might fit a Vitesse if the throttle body was turned, doubt it would fit a GT6 though.

2 hours ago, Jdowson said:

Here's my take on the triumph triple throttle bodies.  Engine running and car drives. Just need to get out and do some tuning

That looks excellent! What ECU are you using?