Spit mk3 Door Gap

[Mark]

Hi all

Started replacing the sills rear wings door skins on my mk3 Spit.

Car still has (had) all original panels, but very rusty so things have moved. Door Gaps are tight, rear lower bottom curve where it follows the sill, gap opening up towards the top of the door. 

Does anyone know what the original door gap to rear wing should be?

Replacement sills have been up in the loft for close to 30 years, bought unused second hand, believe they were Austin Rover supplied, creamy grey in colour, so think they are original pressings.

Started on drivers side. First problem, when the sill is self tapped in position,  the door is  overhanging the sill. Door is following the contour of the original rear wing, and the sill lines up. Dimensions of the original sill and the replacement appear identical so not sure what's going on here? Original door is rusty in places along the bottom edge but the frame is solid and holds its shape.

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Mark

[Nick Jones]

Presumably the gap was still good and the profiles matched on the original sill?

I’ve found that the position (height) of the lower joint has an effect on sill profile, the higher the seam the greater the curvature, and quite small height changes make a big difference. I use a bit of 2 x 2 snugged up against the seam flange and a scissor Jack.

Current sill panels, even the better Heritage ones, aren’t quite right at the back and usually need a tapering strip letting into the step, about 10mm at the back tapering to zero over about 100 - 120mm.

[JMH]

How is the condition of the sill strengthener - and lower edge of the floor panel? 

When the door is overhanging the sill top, its often due to the position of the lower joint - as Nick states.

[RichardB]

Do post back and share pictures if necessary for advice Mark. I'm going through this at the moment with mine and can confirm the advice above, it's surprising how much the form of the sill changes when you move the flanges up and down. I'm also using old AR pressings both sides, though the car has had a lot of surgery and sagged at some point.

In my research I've realised something helpful - there's quite a lot of lines that were originally very straight. The floor pan flange should be very straight across its edge both above it and on its face. The doors equally have a curvature vertically, but horizontally they should be dead straight. You should be able to move a straight edge horizontally up the door and check for any bends in the panel.

My floor pan is only 1/2" deep so will need extending. Not sure how easy that will be to weld without creating a really distorted flange, or otherwise making a right mess. It's a long strip of metal to weld on, even if I cut it back a bit and weld closer to the 90 degree bend.

[JMH]

Richard - shouldn't be a problem as the sill strengthener will cover outer sill part. You can allways add a small strip of metal on the floor pan later.

Should add that I have taken (or people have send me) measurements of how the outer sill to lower edge is forming along the lower inside edge on the body tub on original 'ontouched' cars - often there will be only 1/2 inch at the front, 3/4 at the middle (see drawing) - and  - from memmory -  more at the back (at the dog leg). 

So not always a straight line :-)

[RichardB]

Sorry yes should have mentioned that, the lower edge of the floorpan lip on original cars is shallower at the a post end, it becomes 3/4 deep around where the a post meets the sill strengthener if I remember correctly. There's loads of photos of restos on the Internet where you can see this as people start pulling untouched cars apart.

I was thinking more of the top edge of the lip being dead straight along its length, as well as straight along its face. 

[Mark]

Hi all

Been playing with this for a few days. I've replaced sills, wings and door skins a couple of times before, once on a 1500 Spit about 30 years ago and a mk3 about 15 years ago, but memories have faded.

Looking more closely at the original drivers door there is a slight crease in the skin that has bowed the door out slightly at the bottom, which I think is contributing to the overhang of the sill.

I repaired the very edge of the floor, along its length. There was some remaining flange left at the very front and rear of the floor pan which I used as a guide.  I used a taught piece of string between the remnants as a straight edge to follow. I then welded in the new inner sill and diaphragm. 

The replacement sills have a bow along the bottom edge. I have seen Spitfires with this bow in the sill when fitted to the car, but think the bottom of the sill should be dead straight, whats your thoughts?. I checked the passenger side with the original sill fitted and although corroded does appear to be pretty straight.

Another question. Should the swage line running from the rear wing and across the door line up with the front top part of the sill?  Seen this aligning with the bottom of the front wing and between the wing and top of the sill, in various photos.

[JMH]

10 hours ago, Mark said:

The replacement sills have a bow along the bottom edge. I have seen Spitfires with this bow in the sill when fitted to the car, but think the bottom of the sill should be dead straight, whats your thoughts?. I checked the passenger side with the original sill fitted and although corroded does appear to be pretty straight.

In theory straight, but in practice.... :-)

Don't belive the jig used did have a griep on the lower flange.

 

[RichardB]

I think the answer on the swage line might be neither lining up with the top of the sill, nor the bottom of the front wing. Its exactly half way between which would make sense aesthetically. All the cars I've seen with original panel work seem that way except where I think the bonnet cones are shot and the front wing sits lower than it should.

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, RichardB said:

I think the answer on the swage line might be neither lining up with the top of the sill, nor the bottom of the front wing. Its exactly half way between which would make sense aesthetically.

That’s what we aimed for and it seems to work

[Mark]

Thanks all.

That's good, because that's where I think iam going to end up, based on the best position for the sill. Won't know for sure until I replace the rear wing and door skin.

 

[Mark]

Hi all

This has turned out to be a bit of a slog. Replaced the drivers side rear wing, door skin and sill, and all the associated repairs to floors inner arch, door frame etc. finished all the repairs on the passenger side just got to position the outer sill original door and rear wing before welding.

The sills definitely have a curve looking along the bottom edge, rising by about a 3/8 of an inch at the front where it meets the closing panel. They also curve side on front to back, tapering in slightly where it joins the rear wing. Thats with Austin Rover originals and BMH, I have both. Holding a straight edge on the face of the original door skin below the swage line also shows a slight curve in the door skin and is not flat. As the diagram above shows, the bottom curve of the sill should be a quarter of an inch below the level of the floor. I found I can achieve this most of the length, until the very end, just after where the floor pan ends, where the sill rises up. The front top of the sill sits on a half inch ledge that runs the length of the A panel, so the front of the sill can't be lowered. I got carried away initially forcing the sill along the bottom edge with a length of angle iron, pushed up with jacks. You can then get the sill pretty straight with a small gap between the bottom of the door and sill, but you find the the bottom edge of the curved sill is level with, or higher than the edge of the floor along its length.

I am probably worrying about this to much. I don't know how many people would go into it this deep. I think the sills must have curved up slightly towards front, on cars from the factory, whats your thoughts?

Pics below show the passenger side hung in position, and a look inside the sill. The black line is the position of the edge of the floor, showing the sill curving up. The other pics are of the drivers side as I left it a couple of months ago, gaps need a bit more tuning but getting there.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mark

[Mark]

Just re-read the thread, and the question had previously been answered by Richard and JMH. Just need the rain to stop so I can get out there and finish the passenger side.

 

[RichardB]

On 9/7/2022 at 11:34 PM, Mark said:

The sills definitely have a curve looking along the bottom edge, rising by about a 3/8 of an inch at the front where it meets the closing panel. They also curve side on front to back, tapering in slightly where it joins the rear wing. Thats with Austin Rover originals and BMH, I have both. Holding a straight edge on the face of the original door skin below the swage line also shows a slight curve in the door skin and is not flat. As the diagram above shows, the bottom curve of the sill should be a quarter of an inch below the level of the floor. I found I can achieve this most of the length, until the very end, just after where the floor pan ends, where the sill rises up. The front top of the sill sits on a half inch ledge that runs the length of the A panel, so the front of the sill can't be lowered. I got carried away initially forcing the sill along the bottom edge with a length of angle iron, pushed up with jacks. You can then get the sill pretty straight with a small gap between the bottom of the door and sill, but you find the the bottom edge of the curved sill is level with, or higher than the edge of the floor along its length.

I am probably worrying about this to much. I don't know how many people would go into it this deep. I think the sills must have curved up slightly towards front, on cars from the factory, whats your thoughts?

 

As you've seen from rereading that's right Mark, sorry for taking so long to reply. Here's ORW 756W, the 'last Spitfire' at Gaydon:

The difference in depth of the floorpan lip appears quite pronounced in this photo, and it seems the 2 panel lips mated very well.

You mentioned you have both BMH and Austin Rover outer sills to hand, do they vary in any other places at all?

[Mark]

Thanks for the photo. I gave up trying to fit the Austin Rover sills, and used the Heratige ones. To me the AR sills looked identical to the Heratige, and I couldnt find any differences in various measurements, but when trial fitting, they had more of a curve along the bottom edge towards the front as I pulled it tight to the edge of the floor, so the bottom of the sill was slightly higher than the floor. The Heratige ones just felt a much better fit, and straighter along the bottom edge. Next problem, trying to get the bonnet to fit. The gap between the front of the passenger door and rear edge of the front wing is about an inch, I can close it a little with bonnet tube adjustment, but the gap along the top rear edge of the bonnet will be to tight. Drivers side is about 5mm door to bonnet gap. Door apertures are identical, drivers door is re-skinned, passenger door is original, but when fitting the new skin there is not that much room for error when linning it up with the frame, but something is not right. Got new wings to fit to the bonnet, so may have to tweek it at that stage or add a bit to the front edge of the door. With what I've seen and read this seems to be par for the course on restorations.

[Mark]

Here's the Austin Rover and Heritage sills.

[RichardB]

Thanks Mark, appreciate you sharing the photo. Quite interesting that the AR one didn't seem to fit as well. I've heard it suggested a few times that the rejects from production lines were likely to find their way to spare parts retail, so a lot of them around today are likely to be a bit wonky in some way. Not sure how likely that is to be true, but one of my AR outer sills has a very poorly defined lip where it meets the bulkhead under the bonnet latches.

Odd gaps between the bonnet/door are common and I've seen some horrific examples at shows where sills have been botched as such. I'm generally a fan of using whatever original panels and measurements you can find as datum points, and work from there, rather than adding or removing things to suit where you've found yourself. That approach is taking me a long time though!

[Mark]

Did occur to me that the AR sills could have been seconds, but the pair I bought second hand many years ago were a perfect mirror image of each other, and both had the AR stickers attached which made me think they made it out the door.

Playing around with the bonnet today, removed the frame, and I am able to get the door to front wing gaps equal on each side. Seems  corrosion to the supports around the head lights, particularly bad on the drivers side, was enough to allow the bonnet to sag/twist slightly, opening up the gap between the passenger door and front wing. I've got replacement parts, just have to keep an eye on gaps whilst welding in new panels. Aiming to get the car fully restored in a year, probably halfway through.

[JMH]

I do have an original Stanpart outer sill (from memory 1970ish). They differ slightly from the early spitfire ones as the lip at the upper a-post is not as deep; on the mk 4/1500 it was welded at the edge, not spot welded. 

Can't spot the difference from the OE Heritage ones, though I believe the new ones could be made of a stiffer grade of steel? :-)