Nick Jones Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 It's not unknown for the plenums themselves to have pin holes, especially in the end cap, but it does sound a bit like you've found your suspect elsewhere...... Are the nuts really that hard to get to on the PI TBs? I know my home made effort on the Vitesse gives great access and I don't recall the PI being especially awkward either, though harder than the Vitesse. I guess the cut'n shut to lower them doesn't help. Your OCD might not allow it but it is possible to change the inlet gaskets without the exhaust. Involves a sharp knife. Certainly worth tightening the little bugger first! Good luck! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Further investigation today. When I got down low enough so I could see the nut on the left of the base of the middle TB, I could see the oval washer/spacer had rotated round so it wasn't actually pressing properly on the base of the TB. This looked promising. So I stripped off the plenum (again...), and set to to try to loosen it, straighten it, and tighen up it and it's neighbour. The cut and shut combined with the pheonix header and the TR6 waterpipe means it's really really tight. 1/2 a flat at a time if your lucky tight. This is the view you have when working and this is the clearance a spanner has down there, There's not room for a ring spanner to fit, and there's not room for the shoulders of an open ender. As well, when you can get an open ender on, the header and waterpipe foul the other end when you try to turn it. Trying a "stubby" spanner in there, the angled ring end fouls on the header or the block. Joyous fun. Wotking with Alan has certainly taught me that off the shelf tools are good for their purpous most of the time, but sometimes you need to get medieval. So a cheapie spanner gallantly gave it's life to produce this Suddenly I could get in and tighten, (with occasional leverage added via the use of an extention bar and ball peen "adjuster".) The result? That TB is now as tight as it's going to get. The test was firing up the car again. And it's better. A lot better. The idle with the IAC closed off is no longer 2000 RPM. Sadly, it's also not 400-600 RPM, and as it gets hotter, it gets higher. It's better, but not good enough. The idle stil fluctuates, and its slurping air still and going lean because of it. Spraying butane into the crack no longer kills the engine, it actually increases the revs. Probably because the gap was so large before it was going stupid rich, but now it's not too bad, so it just adds a few revs. Hit the gap with WD40, and it temporarily seals up and idles resonably properly. So... it's as tight as I can get it, but still wrong. Couple of options. I can try pulling it all off, headers and all, then put in a new gasket and some goop. Might work. Might not. Or I can rethink it all. 3 hours kneeling, stretching, straining, slipping and (quite professionally) swearing. Its all a little testing... C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I feel your pain....... Two thoughts 1. Were the flange faces checked for flatness after welding and/or faced flat? If not then definitely worth checking if you have to remove them. Unless severely bowed it should be correctable by lapping on a flat surface with a sheet of 80 grit. 2. How do the thicknesses of the exhaust and inlet flanges compare? The crude clamp design means that if they are not well matched then the lions share of the clamping force goes to the thicker one. If you do have to pull it all apart again (depressing thought) what about using Then hopefully you be able to use to refit and remove in the future....... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Love the spanner. I've kept some of my old tools for just such a purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 So I decided that the cut down PI manifolds just weren't going to cut it. They leak too much, the 65mm butterfly on the TB is just too big, and the work involoved will probably be endless. New plan. I made this a while ago when I was figuring out how to run Alan's mill. Inner side, Outer side, So I cut it out of the stock, and added a lip Took some 100mm tube stock, and let in a slot, leaving the ends so it didnt spring on me. Interesting challenge on the mill, but it all fitted nicely. The next challenge was to join it up. We've recently had a new pilot join the roster at the skydiving club I run. Lovely bloke, loves his flying and all things aviation, and he's having a ball flying the jump plane. As it happens, he runs his own business. http://www.stainlessfabaus.com.au It's good to have friends! Yep, he's got skills! With theplenum log dimensions set, I set to sctatching my head, gazing at the engine bay (and my navel), and trying to work out packaging. Curved runners were the best Idea I could come up with, so I purchased 6 mandrel bent 32mm id runners. 3mm walls makes for 38mm outer dimensions, so the plate and flange (as kindly supplied by V8Nick) were let in for this dimension. Unfortunatley whoever bent the runners didnt centre them at the same spot, so I built a jig so I could measure, trim and linish them to the same length. This is after one end was done. Much much naval gazing and cardboard aided design led to the decision to take 23mm of the other end, so the down arm of the pipes is slightly shorter than the level one. Back to Matt's factory, carrying a case of frosty beer for the runners to be tacked up Then sealed up using electricity and magic. Meet Matt! First trial fit, and we're spot on for width. Result! Now for the challenge of figuring out how much room I have to package in the injectors and fuel rail. Laying upside down and groping around under the hood when it's shut doesnt make for very precise measurment at all. After trying some different things, I finally had some sucess when I hit on the idea of rolling a good old can of Aerogard along the runners. With the hood down, I figured out I had the can plus one finger of clearance as a minimum height wise, and the length of the lid plus a finger width for the fuel rail to protude length wise. Thats actually slightly more than I'd expected. My original thought had been to place the unjectors out at the curve of the runners. I wasn't completley sold on the idea, as it would put them about 5" from the valve, and there were scary warnings on the net about rough idle and hesitation on accelleration from low revs, as well as talk of wall wetting on small diameter runners like these. With the room I had, I was able to look at going back to injecting near the head, pointing at the valve. Knowing the angles and dimensions I'd used with the PI cut and shut set, I needed to find some more room. I've been scouring spreadsheets and data on injectors, and figured out there might be a way. The injectors I'd used are Bosch 0280155777's. They're plentiful and easy to find here, and within 7% of the same spec as the 0280155712's used successfully by Nick Jones and others. The eureka moment was finding the 0280156080's. These are pretty much the same spec as the 777's, but about 11.5mm shorter, with the same JT connector. With these, I could get the angle I needed for packaging, and have room to point the electrical connectors down toward the runner, avoiding the problem of the wiring rubbing the bonnet many have had. I wasn't certain I woul have enough room to keep my Ross Machine Racing fuel rail, but If I needed more room, I planned to have Met fab me up a stainless one. The 080's come from the 3.2 litre Vectra, so they're available, if not common here in Aus. I knew I was on a winner when I found one at the local Pick-a-part wreckers. Not only had someone already removed the manifold making them easy to get to, but they were also on special for $4 each. Serendipity. Some hose, shrink tube, 12 volts, a momentary switch and a $12 can of injector clear later, and they'd been throughly flushed out. $10 on ebay for a rebuild kit, so the old baskets were pulled out with a self tapper in the vise Shiny new baskets. There were tapped in using the plastic head of a T handle hex driver. New O-rings and end disks finished the job. Shiny! With my angles worked out, I needed to trim down the injector bungs. After a few false starts and some ruined expensive bungs, I headed back to the mill. This complicated setup... Gave me these, Which I then finished by labouriously rubbing them down on a sheet of 120 grip wrapped around some 38mm pipe stick. While there I also made an end cap, and a TB attachment. The TB end I made from 32mm billet Which also let me build in an IAC attacment/port Back to Matt's factory (I think I better buy him some more beer) where we tacked Straightened Glued and glued some more, including the endplates. Have I mentioned that Matt runs http://www.stainlessfabaus.com.au? Time for a big test - does it all fit? With the bonnet closed and the fuel rail on, there's about 8mm of clearance all round! And the TB wont foul anything. Time to mill out the injector holes in the runners. Alan's away, so it was over to Matt's to use his mill. Setting it up was a mission, it only just fitted. Took about an hour and a half to get it lock in place. Then just a few minuted with a 10mm slot drill to form the holes. I opened the backs out with a dremel later. So I took it home, tapped it for vacume lines and gave it a clean up with some brillo and WD-40. Uber shiny! Next I added the TB (this is a 56mm MG/Rover one), then tapped, plumbed, and installed the GM IAC. The standard GT6 throttle cable is too short, so I needed to install a new one. At 6'2" and every increasing years, this was unpleasent. Eventually I ripped out the accellerator pedal assembly. Rusty much? So it got wire wheeled and passivated Then got a lick of paint. Eventually, the new intake was in place So it was time for a test Time to clean up the wiring! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS211083 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Well done mate, nice setup. Can't see about half the photo's but the ones I can see look good. Going to be good to get it out on the road. See how it performs on the dyno. Again Well Done. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprint95m Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I concur with what Chris has said. The bespoke manifold is a far better solution indeed. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 Cheers Guys. Photo's should be sorted now. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Nice work. I like it alot. I considered that down-swept shape when I first made mine but bulkhead clearance for no 6 is much less on a Vitesse (bulkhead is further forward) and it would have clashed. Looks impressive now and will be the biz when you've organised the wiring. Why did you make just one? Mr Moore would love one I'm sure and I think you'd find a wider market even at quite big money...... Looking forward to the tuning and driving part as no doubt you are too. Something to look forward to while you are wedged under the dash fiddling with miles of wire! Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6 Nick Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Mr Moore's working on his own version, but without easy and cheap access to milling machines and welders. Such a pity that Melbourne is so far away. I am making use of Craig's advice and experience though, using the same runners and injectors to hopefully get the same bonnet clearance. Hopefully the fabricator will have something to show me in a few days. Does Megasquirt alter the idle by itself? I noticed that it would drop down a few seconds after starting, but couldn't see whether Craig was doing something out of camera shot. Looking forward to the on-road tuning reports! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMH Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Sweet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Well, I sort of gathered you were...... getting Craigs work matched professionally is going to sting a bit I fear. Megasquirt can have active idle control from MS2 version 3 hardware. I need to add it to mine as the big cam makes the idle fussier. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofast2race Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Nick - I'm running MS2 V2.89 - would love active idle control but haven't worked out how yet - I run an IAC valve which progressively lowers cold start idle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Andy, I think you have to have the MS Extra firmware (I don't at present, I think mine is the same as yours). I did find a how to guide at one point (when I didn't need it!) and can't find it again now I want it....... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Nice job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattius Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Wow, top notch, wish i had those toys to play with, but then i would end up with a few wonky bits of metal nothing like they were meant to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 Been too busy to play with the wiring yet, was planning on a day off last week, but someone parked a plane (not ours), directly outside our facility at the Dropzone. He parked fairly badly, and at high speed. After bouncing off three other parked and empty planes, (none of them ours), he missed our full plane by 10 yards, and came to rest like this. The three adults and a 6 year old girl on board all walked briskly away somehow! Have solved one piece of the puzzle though. I wanted kill three birds. First to make sure that I was pulling fresh air from in front of the radiator, second, to get a filter into the mix, and third to get an air intake temp sensor somewhere where it's less likely to heat soak. I only have room for a pod style filter, but here in the nanny state an open pod filter is pretty much an automatic defect notice generator if the rozzers cast their gaze under your hood. Enter the K & N Apollo filter. http://www.knfilters.com/universal/apollo.htm It's the same input and output size as the throttle body, it encloses a pod filter (and a K & N one at that!), it has a cold air extention if needed, and it has an IAT port. In short, it's perfect on paper. Plenty of sitting on the front wheel and gazing into the engine bay had led me to pretty much the only place I could package it in, and in the video earlier you can see it held in place roughly by a 45 degree 70mm id silicone hose. But... The nanny state also requires that pods are not just enclosed, but are held in place by a bracket, not just a hose. That took some serious gazing and pondering. Eventually I hit on an idea. After 6 or 7 lots of cardboard aided design, I cut this out on Alan's mill. Got to love a bolt hole function! Millpwr is kinda awesome software. Now it needed to be bent into shape. I could have squeezed it up in a vice and hit it with a BFH, but 5mm ally probably wouldnt bend prettilly that way. Fortunately, Matt has a fair sorta bend producer. (I did take more beer). It works pretty well With some tweaking and a lick of paint, it looks good with the K & N bits, And it all goes together well It bolts nicely into place using longer bolts through the radiator mounts into the factory holes, meaning no drilling From above, you can see how it keeps access available to the overflow bottle in its original position. I'll tidy up the wiring to the IAT sensor shortly. I reckon it's a tidy package It's all super tight, but it clears the radiator, the grille and the front bar, and the bonnet closes without touching. Result! Time to look at wiring. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS211083 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Very nicely done!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 That air filter is very nicely parked. Top job again. Most unlike the aircraft in the first pic............ though they do say that anything you can walk away from is a landing rather than a crash, and at least he had the decency to miss your aircraft......... Does look alot like a crash to me though! And now you have a big-ass brake press added to your available tool fleet. No cave-man engineering there - unlike here where I've just been invited to go out and explain to two spring-eye bushes that they've been fired....... I see big hammers and fire in my future.... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6 Nick Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Jeez, I saw something about that crash in the news, and quickly realised it was at 'your' airport. I figured you'd be OK though, because you're never in the planes for the landing! My instructor told me that any landing you walk away from is acceptable, and that if you can reuse the plane then it's even better. He never said anything about a landing you run away from, mind you. Right, time to start reading about the Apollo filters. Don't suppose you made two of those brackets by mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Do like the air filter solution, will probably have to do something similar for mine. The airport must be an unlucky place, in the background of the "parked plane" photo it looks like something has come down on the control tower and burned it out, or perhaps it was the skydiving school's summer BBQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Jeez, I saw something about that crash in the news, and quickly realised it was at 'your' airport. I figured you'd be OK though, because you're never in the planes for the landing! Good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 Tha'ts not a control tower. That;s the Edwina May https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tooradin+airport+edwina+may&biw=1280&bih=631&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTr4bJievLAhUmHKYKHTgpCQIQ_AUIBygB&dpr=1 She's a little rusty nowadays. In fact she's falling apart, and a danger to all who approach her. When we first moved the club to Tooradin, I set up a mini driving range on her top deck, hitting old golf balls into Westernport bay. Anyway... The moving of the lectrickery plumbling has begun. Radius crimped Deutsch pins Into Deutsch HDp20 and HD30 bulkhead connectors and the harnesses are getting wrapped Getting there. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Damn.......! You're taking this way to seriously Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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