1500 Efi

[GT]

I just spent a bit of time making all this work properly.

 

manifold is BRAND NEW 1500 Toledo, which has usually got tiny inlet for 150 carb and 1" inlet port sizes, like a peashooter.

 

 

This one has been returned for "normal" use and could be 1 x 45mm butterfly or a 175/HS6/HIF44 or some drillings for injection, and of course would go great with this head and the TR cam.

 

 

ahead again 10.35:1;-

 

 

All maybe revealed at Stoneleigh.

 

At least, unlike last year, there wasn't a Rover full of bits to steal & send to scrap at dead of night by the pikes a week or so before.

[bestquality03]

Or you could use one of these

[pomwah]

Fancy looking intake manifold, stainless? Did you make it?

 

Cheers,

James.

[bestquality03]

Fancy looking intake manifold, stainless? Did you make it?

 

Cheers,

James.

 

Made from aluminium and then hand polished. I made all the bits and had a guy at work weld it up. I also made a jig so it will be easier to make more if need be.

[Triumph-V8]

Great look,

nice length of runners.....

Hopefully you will keep us informed

when it is working........

[bestquality03]

You can follow progress here if you like

 

http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1345079849/

[Triumph-V8]

Interesting, but unfortunately the pictures do not open

will try again later. Seems like the engine works properly

and the people are interested and form a heavy thread.

[bestquality03]

Interesting, but unfortunately the pictures do not open

will try again later. Seems like the engine works properly

and the people are interested and form a heavy thread.

 

I think you need to register in order to view the pictures.

[Nick Jones]

Bob Tooke used one of those Dolomite manifolds on his EFI Midget and reported great torque. Don't know if he opened it out or not.

 

I used a similar one (which I did open out) on my Herald 1300. Worked just as well as 2 x 1.25" SUs - better in some ways as was more tractable when cold and more economical. Didn't give much away to 2 x 1.5" either then only over 6k. Stick an HIF44 on it for grunt and economy on a 1500.

 

Nick

[GT]

Made from aluminium and then hand polished. I made all the bits and had a guy at work weld it up. I also made a jig so it will be easier to make more if need be.

Have you any idea if it works?

Any flow figures?

Why don't you send me one and I'll check it on a flowed head to see what it gives.

 

I think you may be suprised to see, straight linear pipe doesn't work well at all, and as Nick pointed out the twin SU one is pretty bad.

+

As Nick says, I reckon a modified original one may be better, as they put some odd shaped kinks in it & it has much better damping than the twin SU system.

 

I will know by tomorrow eve, and I'll publish the results.

[motov8id]

I have been reading very interesting discussions about intake manifold construction on the web. There are many computer simulations of OEM and home made intakes for inline EFI engines and I was very surprised at the degree of reduction in air velocity caused by bends in the path of the flow.Even in intake runners 1/3 of a meter long the flow velocity is not uniform when it enter at an angle. The two tight radius 90 degree turns in that single carb manifold must have a negative effect on the power potential of an engine. The weight and inertia of the fuel changing direction twice? The Teledo manifold was used on US spec 1500s used in late 70's Spits and MGB Midgets with Cat. converter and 8.0 to 1 compression. Google intake manifold design.

[Triumph-V8]

Back to the above design I would strongly recommend to aim for a single straight runner for each cylinder.

If cam is more than 270-280 degrees single throttle plates for each runner are healthy.

That is what all modern engines show and why not participate from the results of all these engineers

equipped with more money and technical equipment we will ever have.

 

It is better to watch what those do instead generating the wheel new.

 

The only reason I would recommend to stay on old fashion manifolds with runners coming together

is legal force or motorsport rules that forbid such radical solutions.

 

Even Triumph came to such solutions with their PI injection.

Or does anybody believe the chronical bankrupt company would do such an effort

if the same result could have been reached with just a little bit of headwork and carb setting on two SU's????

 

I am driving such a system like posted first and its like heaven compared to the stock Twin Stromberg

that I got delivered from USA: More torque starting just from idle and a thunderstorm from 4000 that seems to end never!

Just a 290 degree cam on a 2.7 litre TR6, that is really, really a big step to a lot of fun!

 

For all those who can not imagine it is just that you will not need the overdrive anymore

because the engine is fresh turning beyond all limits. Completely different to what it was before

but still can go on 4th with overdrive at 50Km/h without stumbling.

WIll never built up something different than what is in the first pictures here!!!!!

A little bit of more work at startup and have to make yourself familiar with the electronics

and than the equipment is reliable, cheap and easy to setup!

[bestquality03]

Have you any idea if it works?

Any flow figures?

Why don't you send me one and I'll check it on a flowed head to see what it gives.

 

I think you may be suprised to see, straight linear pipe doesn't work well at all, and as Nick pointed out the twin SU one is pretty bad.

+

As Nick says, I reckon a modified original one may be better, as they put some odd shaped kinks in it & it has much better damping than the twin SU system.

 

I will know by tomorrow eve, and I'll publish the results.

 

Not yet I don't as the guy I made it for is having a little trouble with the electronics and megasquirt settings so the car won't start. He's had his spit on the rolling road with HS4's and will be taking it back to the same place for the megasquirt mapping. Should get a direct comparison on power and torque. He's Not much fussed about ultimate power increase, he's just after reliability and good MPG. I suspect more power and torque would be a bonus.

[motov8id]

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs/michaeldelaney/130-intake-manifold-tech-runner-size-calculations.html there is more to it than welding

[Nick Jones]

Interesting link that. Thanks for posting

 

Nick

[GT]

More than interested in testing your new manifold now, as I got final figures on the much vaunted single SU toledo manifold today

(SF120)

 

Even the MODIFIED one stinks!

 

The modified head flowed 83cfm max & 63.9cfm at 0.320", which is pretty darn good considering it has modified Stanpart valves in there, nothing big or exotic.

 

The "turd" manifold above, which is MUCH better than the little Herald Stromberg cr..p, or the USA Spitfire Stromberg sh..t...flows wait for it............

 

51.9cfm at 0.320" and 60.5cfm at 0.500", so a REALLY tasty restriction, not anything remotely like performance kit like Canley or JK always made out!

Just imagine how the STANDARD one must behave!

[bestquality03]

More than interested in testing your new manifold now, as I got final figures on the much vaunted single SU toledo manifold today

(SF120)

 

Even the MODIFIED one stinks!

 

The modified head flowed 83cfm max & 63.9cfm at 0.320", which is pretty darn good considering it has modified Stanpart valves in there, nothing big or exotic.

 

The "turd" manifold above, which is MUCH better than the little Herald Stromberg cr..p, or the USA Spitfire Stromberg sh..t...flows wait for it............

 

51.9cfm at 0.320" and 60.5cfm at 0.500", so a REALLY tasty restriction, not anything remotely like performance kit like Canley or JK always made out!

Just imagine how the STANDARD one must behave!

 

I have everything to make another 5 manifolds. PM me if you want to take it further.

[Triumph-V8]

When going to fuel injection on race cars in former times

we always found availiable runners on the market are too short

space in the compartment is limited and diametres are too big.

 

Just the TR6 manifolds are with the 45mm flappers to wide after the flappers.

Anyway, the length should be longer as Kastner already stated but can not be due to the inner wheelarch.

Triumph tried the best and already made a bowl in the inner wheelarch to bring things half way together.

 

For best performance I would expect the TR6 runners in the range under 40mm and the length of 30cm.

 

That might be kept in mind when constructing such a piece of inlet.

With a mild cam the above shown manifold is close to that

because it avoids the flapper area and can go out with a straight tighter tubeline

and I would never believe that a curved and bended manifold

with two carbs can come close to that.

 

So in many, many practical conversions the main topic is to make a smooth proper solution

that is reliable and fits under the bonet and does never fail due to the problem that you work with pressurized fuel.

 

Calculations might be helpful but in my cases we could not even come close to that because of practical space problems.

 

The step to electronic injection with individual runners is 95% of the whole way

and should be made with great passion and time to get it perfect.

Setup of mappings provides us with possibilities beyond all things a carb-man would think about.

Also Kastner pointed out, that the results on the bench had to be reestablished at the track due to other temperature and air pressure.

All that and a perfect ignition curve is on board and helps to have the bench results availiable in daily use without trouble.

The last 5% that might be missed (but will not de missed in all cases) are not worth to aim for because it is a lot of work that does not pay.

 

Yesterday was summer in Germany and the brand new Megasquirt TR6 made its first steps up to 5000 rpm.

It is amazing what the difference was to the carbs and what fun it is when at 4000 you get a kick instead

getting bored. When read about doing more and calculate or aim for carbs and modify

manifolds I would like to invite everybodoy for a little trip.

 

Definitely there will be no more wishes for a sports engine.

It is simply perfect with a MS2 on TR6 PI manifolds.

[GT]

When going to fuel injection on race cars in former times

we always found availiable runners on the market are too short

space in the compartment is limited and diametres are too big.

 

Just the TR6 manifolds are with the 45mm flappers to wide after the flappers.

Anyway, the length should be longer as Kastner already stated but can not be due to the inner wheelarch.

Triumph tried the best and already made a bowl in the inner wheelarch to bring things half way together.

 

For best performance I would expect the TR6 runners in the range under 40mm and the length of 30cm.

 

That might be kept in mind when constructing such a piece of inlet.

With a mild cam the above shown manifold is close to that

because it avoids the flapper area and can go out with a straight tighter tubeline

and I would never believe that a curved and bended manifold

with two carbs can come close to that.

 

When read about doing more and calculate or aim for carbs and modify

manifolds I would like to invite everybodoy for a little trip.

 

Definitely there will be no more wishes for a sports engine.

It is simply perfect with a MS2 on TR6 PI manifolds.

 

Sorry but just don't agree with any of that.

The TR6 pi manifolds are the perfect length, and perfect design.

Kastner has it totally wrong (as usual),- better quote Kinsler not Kastner as a US Fuel injection authority.

The most important dimension is the intake to port cross sectional area, not the runner.

 

Increasing it with longer rampipes as I did and moving the injector out into the trumpet increased peak torque at 5000rpm, which was what I was after, and some drop in top end after 7500rpm.

 

Using a slightly larger barrel filter gets around some of the under dimension problems up stream.

 

As for EFI, I've never yet found an EFI car that ever gave anything remotely like as good driveability as Lucas Injection.

 

[esxefi]

 

As for EFI, I've never yet found an EFI car that ever gave anything remotely like as good driveability as Lucas Injection.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxar0gz3-I

 

you're kidding,..right?

 

how come they still don't use mechanical injection now then(diesel aside),surely efi is more controllable and more efficient.it may not sound as good as pi.but i can't see how if using the same bodies.

 

that rev counter doesn't tell much,it's all over the place(typical cable operation)

[GT]

You can say what you like.

The (rebuilt) tacho is in fact correct, as I have the power curve for the engine and it peaks at 6300rpm.

The reason it "wanders all over the place" is because I slipped the clutch a little from the lights so as to be gentle with it.

 

The fact is, so far (and I would love to be proved wrong), I have never yet found an EFI car that goes as well with as good a power band on this particular engine.

The reason they don't do things this way any more?

 

Well, you can write a book about it, but there's many many reasons, not least because of the use of catalytic convertor technology on all cars since the 90s.

Sorry to disappoint you.

[Triumph-V8]

If EFI does not act as good as mechanical PI (or even better)

in my opinion it is due to the one that did the setup.

Megasquirt can do everything that makes sense and can do that better than PI

especially if cam is modiified because in that case the springs in the Pi need a modification, too.

 

We can do a lot of "yes" and "no" but best will be to prove.

When I can rev my engine that high I will make a video, too.

Than we will compare and see but right now the engine has only done 180Km

and the limit for me is 4500......

 

My last step with the PI was with the Stage3 cam from SAH

That was not even close to what the engine can do now with 2.7, EFI and 290cam.

So right at this point the conclusion is that especially me

was not able to bring that configuration close to the EFI results.

[Nick Jones]

Not cat on either of mine.......

 

Nick

[GT6 Nick]

I've read that the PI's high pressure results in better fuel atomisation than EFI. Don't know if that's still true? If so, that would explain why Triumphs produce more power on PI than EFI. Presumably modern inlet manifolds are designed to locate the EFI injector in the optimal location for their spray pattern, whereas stuffing an EFI injector into a PI manifold wouldn't work so well. All just guesswork.

 

I've just started looking at different styles of injector. One nozzle, four... Maybe I should build a rig to see what their spray patterns look like.

[Gt6s]

whereas stuffing an EFI injector into a PI manifold wouldn't work so well. All just guesswork.

 

 

 

I use EFI injectors stuffed into PI manifolds and it works very nicely, thank you.

 

Laurence