Urge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Hi Nick Its been a long time since I did my baffeled trap door,ed sump on my fiat twin cam, so am a little rusty. But I would have concernes as to the tight fit off the baffle plate to the side walls of the sum. The oil needs to get to the pick up in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 something to consider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 not one off mine I might add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah, fair point, but at the front & rear there is 3 - 4mm in most places plus a large hole around the oil pump, plus dipstick hole and another in the middle. I think the oil will get back ok, but on reflection I may be unintentionally reducing the natural circulation and mixing of the whole sump contents by returning the bulk of the oil close to the oil pick-up. This might lead to high oil temperatures at cruise. I've fitted it now..... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 In the photos of yours nick, there didn't apear to be much of a gap. as to the bulk of the oil near the pick up, that's were you want it, all of it if your lucky (once its done its job) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 I like the return slots in the picture you posted. I'd have put some like that in if I'd thought of it! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 nothing a very sharp narrow chizel can achive in situe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedTaylor Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 But then, you guys run copper brake lines all the time without failure? Copper for brake pipes - hate the stuff. Soft so can get knocked and damaged, can work harden, can be a bu**er to undo as I have found on cars I have worked on were it was fitted the copper james in the union and turns with the union and screws itself into knots requiring cutting to remove. I only ever use cupro nickel, or on my Historic cars (BL/BMC Special Tuning built Landcrabs and Triumph Mk1 PI estate) I use bundy to preserve original spec. All much stronger than copper, and nowadays with the known corrosion potential of bundy keep it lightly waxed and watch out for corrosion. Now for the screams of derision for saying rude things about copper brake pipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 Shock, horror - the patient is finally on the table for transplant surgery...... engine extraction tomorrow. May even get the new one in tomorrow - dependent on what is ailing the clutch. Did about 120 miles in it yesterday and while it was going ok, the clutch made nasty noises every time it was used (previously intermittent) and the whiff of burning oil and crankcase fumes was present whenever I dropped below 5 mph. Oil level started the day at minimum and finished well below minimum, though still on the dipstick. There were some sand-sized grains of metal on the magnetic plug which I suspect have come from a cam follower or two. There will be a PM done in due course. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitesse203 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Good luck Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 Thanks Paul. Fairly long day today. Progress is being made but a bit slower than I'd like. Patient on the table Strip down under way off with the head (done in the car 'cause I've had trouble getting studs out in the past and it helps if the engine is attached to something heavy - two were pretty stubborn, rest ok) short engine and box out We've also stripped the bits that need to be transferred from old to new off, I've cleaned up the head ready to go on and sorted out 14 good head studs. Couple of issues to be checked/overcome. First is cam followers which need to be fitted before I put the head on. These have been waiting patiently for years in their original packing having been supplied with the cam. Out of curiosity I put a straight edge across the face, which clearly shows that they are not flat but crowned........ I thought Triumph engines were flat tappet engines. All the others I have kicking about are flat or concave from wear. The ones in the old engine that are still ok-ish are flat..... Bit reluctant to fit these without discussing with cam supplier. Second is that there is no obvious reason for the nasty noises from the clutch. Everything looks pretty good. My home-made pilot bush looks a bit weary but as the noise seems to happen even when it is not in play, I don't think it is the cause. Steering rack tube bush has loads of play (MoT due shortly) so I'll probably pull the rack now while it's very easy! Old engine turns so easily with the head off - clearly no ring tension left........ Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triumphlux Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Thats good progress for one day! Its helps if you have decent space around the car :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitesse203 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hi Nick A little worrying that you have found no obvious cause for the clutch noise. What was the end float on the crank like? All my cam followers have been flat. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Hi Paul, Crank end-float approx 0.016" ( bit big but been stable there for quite some time). Witness marks on the clutch fingers are very wide and the contact face of the bearing looks too worn for the 5000 odd miles it's been in. Clutch throw is now about correct. It's almost like the clutch cover is not quite concentric with the release bearing, which is a scary thought given the way my bellhousing came to be! However, trail-fitting the box on the engine without the clutch shows that the input shaft slips easily into the spigot bearing as the BH goes on the studs and dowel so it's pretty damn close. Also, it didn't do this after the original build and that did 20+k and was being over-stroked as well. I'm thinking (hoping) it is this particular clutch cover which is faulty. It's not the same one I used originally but a cheapo recon'd B & B. I have a different, hopefully better one for the new build and another new release bearing. Going to get the BH put up on a mill tomorrow to make sure the flanges are parallel. Ghetto measurement suggests they are damn close but I always meant it to get a final light skim....... Cam followers have gone back to Newman following a discussion with them today. Excellent response so far seeing as I bought them in 2010! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 I think I have identified the clutch issue and hopefully rectified it. As noted above the contact ring on the diaphragm fingers was wider than it should have been plus alot of wear on the fingers/release bearing face suggesting scuffing. Also the pilot bush was wearing at a slight angle. All this suggested that the gearbox was not fully concentric with the engine. Not the answer I was looking for but hardly surprising given the origins of the bell housing! I fitted the box to the engine without a clutch and peered through the clutch arm window. Not very scientific, but enough to show that the gearbox was sitting 1 - 2mm high. Interestingly enough, removing the single location dowel seemed to improve matters considerably - which might explain why it all seemed to work much better the first time it was all assembled as I'm pretty sure the dowel wasn't in place then. Anyway, I had long been plotting a better pilot bush in the form of the proper ball-race used by Toyota. They charge big bucks for it but in fact it's a bog-standard sealed ball-race costing a fiver from your local bearing supplier. So I bought one and got a local machinist to open the centre hole in the flywheel out to 32mm to take it. I appear to have forgotten to take a picture of this - sorry! This new pilot bearing arrangement will be less tolerant of mis-alignment, but also gives a more positive location to check the alignment. The old engine was mounted vertically on the engine stand with new flywheel and backplate with no dowels and studs at all. The gearbox was then popped on the top and the position where it wanted to be compared with where the studs/dowel force it to be. This confirmed the earlier suspicion that the dowel was forcing it to sit too high with the 3 studs in the block causing the same problem but to a much lesser extent. Relieving the bell housing holes with a file (literally seconds per hole) was all it too to resolve and to try a make things a bit more repeatable I them clamped the flanges and drilled two holes in opposing positions out to 9.5mm to allow the use of 3/8" bolts as dowel bolts as done on the saloons. With everything back on the new engine on the floor, the gearbox was re-offered up and fitted perfectly. Happy with that, so flywheel bolts torqued up, clutch fitted, new release bearing fitted and gearbox finally fitted. Then engine and box back in the car Meanwhile the rack had been swapped for one with less play in the tube end bush and inner ball joints. This one had a hole for the antirattle button so I had to make one of those and add a rubber strip and jubilee clip to hold it The jubilee clip fitted so nicely I added one on the other side, meaning that the rack now has some back-up location should it be tempted to slide in the clamps. Another thing that came to light while fiddling with the rack was that the two sections of the steering column which are meant to allow it to collapse in the event of a serious collision were in fact rusted together (!). I've freed them off and added some lube to stop it happening again. Still awaiting cam followers (Newman confirmed that the original supply were "not ideal"!). Hopefully they'll come today so I can finish reassembling the engine. Meanwhile I've stripped and painted the bulkhead under the master cylinders as brake fluid has eaten the paint (again) allowing it to go rusty (again). Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitesse203 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hi Nick Good news about the gear box. Didn't clean your chassis whilst the rack was out though.... What Newman cam did you fit. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motov8id Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 the radius on the cam followers induces rotation as well as being offset from the center line of the cam lobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 Yes, when used with cams ground for use with crowned followers. Triumph cams are not so bad things can happen. Still awaiting the new followers but apparently I've been upgraded to steel ones FOC, so very happy with that. Will be even happier when they get here as it's holding me up! Though in fact the wait has proved a good thing as a recent CT thread jogged my memory about misleading torque figures for the flywheel bolts in various Haynes and factory manuals. These make it very easy to use the 3/8" bolt figures (1600 & early 2000 only) which are way too low for the 7/16" bolts used on the later ones (like mine). Yes, I'd got it wrong, even though I'd been round this loop with the PI quite recently - senile old fool! So I had to take the damn engine back out and remove the box so I could do it all again. The only good news was that I hadn't got much beyond doing up the mounting bolts due to waiting for the followers so it could have been alot worse...... I worry how daft I might get when I'm actually old Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motov8id Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) a cam ground for radiused followers? http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2006/07/vizards-view-avoiding-flat-tappet-cam-and-lifter-failure/ Edited May 22, 2015 by motov8id Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 Hi Nick Good news about the gear box. Didn't clean your chassis whilst the rack was out though.... What Newman cam did you fit. Paul Why remove natures rust-proofing......? It's a hybrid PH3 (inlet) PH2 (exhaust). Will be interesting to see how it gets on with my plenum manifold! Newman appeared to agree that the original (very noticeably crowned) followers were not ideal and have supplied new ones which are, as far as I can tell with limited equipment, flat faced. Newman deserve full marks for providing full support several years after the original purchase date and upgrading the followers at no cost to me. Good company. Should have the thing running later - I hope! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 It lives Gave the oil pump a quick spin up with an electric drill to get oil pressure, put the gear and pedestal back together, cycled the fuel pump a few times to prime the fuel rail and it fired right up. Couple of minor oil leaks, one from one of the unions of my external line which I'd forgotten to tighten and one from rear most gallery plug which I had tightened. It waited until my 20 minute cam break-in was nearly done then started. Tried tightening a bit more - no joy, then whipped it out (making more mess) and fitted another with loctite sealant. That seems to be holding....... though it may repeat the trick of it's mate.... Sounds quite sweet and has a bark it didn't have before when the throttle is blipped. I've not changed the map at all yet but surprisingly (to me) it idles quite nicely at 800rpm - just a hint of a "lope" though it's really quite rich at idle right now. We've just come in from refitting the interior and bonnet so should be ok to drive it tomorrow....... Curious to see of the clutch issues are resolved - testing in the garage proved that it works, has a nice light action and makes no noise - long may this continue! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Woof! I know that bark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Done 25 miles this morning and it hasn't blown up....... oil leak seems to be cured - no drips so far. Just bumbling around the lanes with varying loads and revs. Hard to believe the cam has something like 300º duration on the inlet side. It idles at 800rpm and will pull cleanly from 900rpm. Totally tractable. I haven't changed the map at all and it drives fine - bit richer than it was up to 2500 or so. Does seem to take on a different character above 3k but haven't visited that area very much yet...... On the downside, given the cam bearings, careful oil pump build and VP2 shells I'd like more than 20psi oil pressure at hot idle...... though it maybe my gauge has been injured by the excesses produced by the last engine running cold on Wynns....... Clutch is working fine, no nasty noises and the rebuilt steering rack is nice. Pity I didn't manage to get the column on the right spline - one out as usual....... Just need to exercise it and loosen it up - not that it appears especially tight. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Nice one Nick. Any chance of some youtube? What cam did you end up going with? C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 I'll have word with the co-pilot re video footage. Might wait until it's done a few more miles and I can give it some welly..... The cam is from Newman and a hybrid of their PH3 on inlet (300º) and PH2 on exhaust (280º). This is meant to give a bright top end without giving it all away at the bottom. Certainly it seems pretty tractable at the bottom end. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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