GT Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 slings and arrows? Outrageous prices? ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother Teresa Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Or: "Frailty, thy name is County...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triumphlux Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 If I remember well I posted this before, the Email from a guy in the States who seems to have a huge stock of NOS Vandervell bearings of good quality : basiladams at yahoo.com Mind you, they are not cheap ..... BUT if they last 100.000 miles compared to maybe 5.000 ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Looks like you said it all. They are just county crap made in some desert Kibbutz or former occupied territories. Why can't people just accept they are CRAP. (clap) A cheap clone of Glacier LC. with a surface finish of fine glass paper. And the (realistic) choices are....? Glacier (not very good) Clevite (don't know? have to be imported from US) King Trimetal (not very good, maybe better than Glacier) King standard (dreadful) Vandervell VP2 (the holy grail but getting very hard to find, especially some common undersizes +10, +20) Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 OK, I'm so damn tired of hearing of this Lady Macbeth character! Just cuz she was a spice girl and married some footballer doesn't mean us yanks are gonna swoon! She's not so hot! What? Never Mind.... I've seen way too many bearings looking just so over the years. It's always just as Nick says, oiling failure. # two and five are the worst for it and it's because of centrifugal forces in the crank resisting oil flow to the rods. Trust me I could write a book on it. Once you start with the RPM's the failures grow. Open your block passages to the max, fit Kas's octopus and use synthetic oil. That's good to a reliable 6K. After that you're on your own. Fitting the dry sump turned around my engine reliability. From replacing rods every other race (if lucky) to running them for a year and replacing them out of guilt. I'm not saying go fit a dry sump, just illustrating how weak the factory system is. (IN a Racer, not a driver) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 OK, I'm so damn tired of hearing of this Lady Macbeth character! Just cuz she was a spice girl and married some footballer doesn't mean us yanks are gonna swoon! She's not so hot! What? Never Mind.... I've seen way too many bearings looking just so over the years. It's always just as Nick says, oiling failure. # two and five are the worst for it and it's because of centrifugal forces in the crank resisting oil flow to the rods. Trust me I could write a book on it. Once you start with the RPM's the failures grow. Open your block passages to the max, fit Kas's octopus and use synthetic oil. That's good to a reliable 6K. After that you're on your own. Fitting the dry sump turned around my engine reliability. From replacing rods every other race (if lucky) to running them for a year and replacing them out of guilt. I'm not saying go fit a dry sump, just illustrating how weak the factory system is. (IN a Racer, not a driver) Sustained high rpm finds the weaknesses.... What shells do you use Steve? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 What I use now wouldn't help you as they are a special. They are Clevites. Before this I used the King Trimetals and they worked as well as the Clevites. Mind you I am an extreme user abusing the whole mess to 8K. I was completely satisfied with the Kings as they lasted as well as the Clevites. Still I changed them every other weekend because they'd be knackered. It's the oil system, not the materials... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithy Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Huh? Oh! And her son's name is Romeo. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 go fit a dry sump, just illustrating how weak the factory system is. So what EXACTLY is NEW about this? Everyone knows this in the race business. Why do Porsche's have this since the mid 60s? Single seaters? One GOOD blow up and you've paid the complete kit... : Why do so many fast Fords have dry sump? Because it works, saves power & saves money. As for Vandervell it's not so hard really, apart from people nicking my gear, it's a mass produced production bearing:- they made zillions of the things! Having said that, I NEVER had a problem for 1yr+ without a rebuild. The STD rods/pistons are too heavy/made of rubber that's why they used VP2 to begin with. Change that & the problem's gone. :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Having said that, I NEVER had a problem for 1yr+ without a rebuild. The STD rods/pistons are too heavy/made of rubber that's why they used VP2 to begin with. Change that & the problem's gone. :-/ Gareth, I wish it was that easy. And I would be THRILLED to have an explanation for why I fought bearings for fifteen years. I had Carrillo rods, Vandervell bearings, JE pistons and some very good crank grinders. I had an accusump. I suspect the -8 oil lines to the cooler were too small but that's not the whole story. There's an intrinsic failure in the lube system. Period. Normally when some waller tells me his bearings last forever and he can't understand what my problem was a fewe follow up questions clarify...he's a backmarker that never goes over 6000 RPM and never won a race in his life. When you say you went a year I trust you were caning the livin' shit out of it as I. Don't know what to say...Even if I'm totally stupid I should have stumbled upon a combination somewhere along the way.... BTW, Race report coming your way soon... 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 What I use now wouldn't help you as they are a special. They are Clevites. Before this I used the King Trimetals and they worked as well as the Clevites. Mind you I am an extreme user abusing the whole mess to 8K. I was completely satisfied with the Kings as they lasted as well as the Clevites. Still I changed them every other weekend because they'd be knackered. It's the oil system, not the materials... Thanks.... 8K...... mine occasionally gets to 6250 (rev limiter) very briefly if I forget myself in first or second gear in the wet. In any other gear I'f be exceeding the speed limit to get anywhere near that . On the BMC A series I believe that the accepted mod is to cross-drill the crank oilway to reduce centrifuging effects.... may also have be done on early 2.5 cranks according to some? Not really a subsitute for proper oil supply though. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I had very good results with the cross drilling. I believe it helped. Scary bit of work though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHR630 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well I have to say that if these bearings go anytime soon, that will be the end of it for this year at least. I have found a spare engine for rebuild and I think I have a chance of getting hold of a NOS crank which perhaps I could get VP2s for (the logic being that there might be some standard sizes left) and build up a good engine, but I really don't have the funds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 George, what do you rev to? Do you have an Accusump? Pan baffling and trapdoors? In other words, how modded are you? PM me direct if it helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHR630 Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 Steve, i have the rev limiter set at 7000. The sump has baffles and windage tray ( made by me). High revs are restricted to occasional excursions (hill climbs last less than a minute). I have a 25psi oil light switch fitted and I only recall it flickering once last season on a very tight hairpin bend. I have thought about an accusump, but again have heard mixed reports. i guess I am nowhere near as modded as you (it's still a road car) - highlights are: 1998cc (MK2) 6 cylinder OHV with 0.060” over bore (2080cc). NOS Hepolite pistons, clearance set to 0.0035 in Gas-flowed/ported head, competition reduced stem valves (TriumphTune) and Kent springs, Jigsaw lightened followers radiiused (3 angle) valve seats, 10:1 CR, Harland Sharp roller-rocker assembly. Kent TH6 camshaft. Lightened/balanced flywheel /hardened crank. ARP Flywheel Bolts. ARP con-rod bolts. Block face “decked” (zero piston heights) , - had to remove about 25 thou from block, all piston heights are now at 0 +/- 5 thou duplex chain & Vernier cam sprocket. (Jigsaw) 16 row oil cooler and Oilstat Sump baffles & windage tray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Clevite (don't know? have to be imported from US) Forget Clevite, they're rubbish too. (they make better bearings for yankee V8s) Clevite are wrongly toleranced and make for a noisy engine with 20-30psi lower oil pressure. Been there, done that,> in the days when my engines were assembled by someone else, they fitted them with Clevite. It's one of ONLY 2 engines I had back on warranty......I had to drop the sump and swop the ends and mains thanks to that!! Boy was I furious because I paid the guy to fit Vandervell, and had to retrofit them myself. The other warranty engine I had back was HL from Paris>the Le Mans Spit owner.. (1500 Spitfire engine which holed a piston@+040) He got a brand new NOS blueprinted unit as replacement, and both are still running today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I don't believe this endemic oil system failure bit. Apart from the obvious 1500 centre main overload thing (2 conrods & pistons being thrown up and down on 1 bearing ovalling the crank) I don't see how we can possibly have had zero failures all these years inc a 380bhp turbo car if the bottom end was weak. My 2Lpi estate car used to be driven at extended periods at 125-130mph (6500rpm) & that EVEN had glacier bearings in it : Just ask Mickey* about his Stag crank tho....careful assembly pays, > it cost me a small fortune to learn about correct assembly....(many unhappy hrs associated with FWD engineering & Jags) *His crank alone, took more than 14hrs of polishing and sorting.... How does Lucas's 1300 engine become so reliable all these years,it's never blown up since the day it dumped its original stanpart conrods on the floor in front of Pete Baldwin back in ?? 83/84? BRAND NEW CRANK in stanpart box. Steel mini conrods/VP2 bearings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_trinda Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 And the (realistic) choices are....? Glacier (not very good) Clevite (don't know? have to be imported from US) King Trimetal (not very good, maybe better than Glacier) King standard (dreadful) Vandervell VP2 (the holy grail but getting very hard to find, especially some common undersizes +10, +20) Nick Anyone tried these? As sold by TRGB http://www.acl.com.au/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitNL Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Looks like a bimetal to me: pdf http://catalog.acl.com.au/aclwebcatalog/Modules/Catalog/UsagesSelector.aspx?parent=IT43069&type=TP80&listtype=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 They have Both Fred, Aluglide (bimetal) and duraglide (tri) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_trinda Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Quote from their blurb sheet: Aluminium Tin materials have been around since the 1960’s. It has traditionally been the choice of Japanese and European manufacturers for low load, gas, passenger cars. As the loads developed by high horsepower late model engines increased so too did the need for a stronger bearing material. Copper Lead Trimetal bearings have been the answer for higher load applications, but as the world becomes more environmentally conscious, the need for lead free engine components has increased, without sacrificing the load carrying capacity required for modern engines. The addition of Silicon as an alloying element to the Aluminium Tin family of bearing materials has elevated it to the next generation of performance materials. This is currently the choice of most OE manufacturers as the global mandate to have Lead free vehicles is enforced. An added benefit of the Aluminium Tin Silicon bearings is the excellent wear resistance properties, extending the service life of these parts. http://www.acl.com.au/web/aclwebsite.nsf/8df7d3f7b605537a4a2569660082eda8/ede0c8cce00b6f36ca2571fc002563e8/$FILE/83681922.pdf/21446_acl%20aluglide%20AUS.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteClan Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 As a non Triumph owner it's been fun looking at this thread. As someone who has destroyed more Imp engines than I care to remember may I be as bold as to suggest that the photo of the bearing published by GHR has been destroyed as the result of oil starvation resulting from oil surge. I've had many like that and we finally tracked down the problem as being zero oil pressure for a fraction of a second that was not registered by a pressure gauge or oil warning light. We found it occurring on left hand bends after fitting a data logger. When a bearing is starved of oil wear begins, regardless of make, and accelerates each time there is a lack of oil with the end result that the bearing eventually lets go just as in the photo. How did I cure the problem?. Just like Steve I designed and fitted a dry sump system. No more problems and my existing engine has started it's fifth racing season having had only a precautionary bearing change following losing the belt drive to the external oil pump some 3 years ago. This engine has the rev limiter set at 9750 and regularly sees 9500+ in all of the gears. Pete Richards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHR630 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 Thanks Pete, that is really interesting and is inline with what Steve was saying. Interestingly it was the first time doing successive laps and repeatedly cornering hard (soft track tyres) as opposed to the hill climbs. I was deeply suspicious of the external oil feed going to the front of the gallery draining instead of feeding oil to the front of the crank? Mind you that feed might have saved #6 since it was adjacent to that and #5 suffered since it is the next furthest from the pump? Anyway, I am now investigating Steve's Accusump idea which appears designed for exactly that type of event that you describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Anyone tried these? As sold by TRGB http://www.acl.com.au/ B !!! typical isn't it! Sold as some great idea. More crap bearings ACL is an outfit reselling stuff from all over the place> Mahle pistons, mostly Glyco & TRW bearings etc. This idea the Triumph engine gets oil surge is total B..ll..x It may just be, slanted engine like the Imp, Jag & Lotus 907 are more prone to it (for obvious reasons-they're SLANTED), but when it's built right, even surge on a 7 main bearing like the Jag rarely results in destruction when using VP2s. I've driven quite a lot of engines with surge problems inc the caterham 7s (mega surge under braking)..I just used to watch the gauge BURY itself in the ZERO for 2-3 seconds coming down the gears for a hairpin at MAX revs, but thertufftrided crank & VP bearings saved it every time (It's a true anti-galling test for bearings & hardening,- which they also use on helicopters. Helicopter gearboxes have to be able to run for ?15 mins at full power without any oil whatoever to pass quality control btw.) I never ever had surge in a Triumph 6 ever, and TBH if it's going to happen it's FAR more likely on a continental mountain hillclimb with slicks. (hairpins and last second braking- hillclimb slicks invariably use AVON which are REALLY soft). I NEVER had any sort of surge using slicks. I wonder if any of the modern track day tyres still even approach the sheer levels of grip of the SB49 Michelin slick on the 8" rims I was using then. The biggest culprit on these failures is faulty clearances and poor materials. Once those nasty slanted conrods start going oval you're on a road to ruin...then all you need is a gearchange and goodbye. The only reason they did things like that was to get that large bearing down such a small bore. (you can't get a proper conrod bolt on a Triumph 6 unless you're using 80mm bores, because there's NO ROOM for the conrod head) Remember how the design of those slanted (45 degree) conrods result in the oil lube point at the critical acceleration/pressure points as being SMACK in the ovalled corner of the rod. (imps are identical) If you MUST use rubber conrods in an engine with bearings that simply can't dissipate the heat, you're going to MELT & squeeze out the conrod bearing material. I like the french expression here "COULER UNE BIELLE", because it's pretty exact. You have seriously overloaded that bearing and overheated it, thats's why the french say "you've melted it". Part of the design of high class conrods and cranks goes into the often neglected question of keeping the oil cool...just LOOK at how your conrod will have gone BLUE. The bearings has tipped off the heat gradient point and melted. I don't believe for even ONE SECOND the crank has centri oil flow problems......certainly not with that short stroke. I've NEVER had a failure using a brand new NOS crank/VP bearings EVER, and I never baffled the sump, nor messed with the oil ways. TBH I don't think anyone has ever made an engine that revved as hard as mine>I could take it from 5000-9000rpm all day long. I even remember Pete Baldwin looking at me with my old 2.2L unit when I said "take it up then" to 8000rpm, and he said "are you sure about that?" ..... ;D I said OF COURSE, because if you BUILD it right it will NEVER go wrong. Building engines is ALL about keeping things in design constraints, and most of the machine shops literally don't have a F...clue what they are on about for clearances..even some of the better ones it must be said. Damn it, NOT even the people that took over Chesman knew what they were on about....never mind S Cerney! (requested different b/e clearances....."err why would you want to do that" duhhh.........!!) That's why you get companies like Minster http://www.minister-power.com/or Scholar who know what they are doing, & mickey mouse companies like looney or jiggery poke etc who don't have a xxxxxxx clue! : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveNotSoSideways Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Well my 4 cyl Triumph engine had masses of surge in the pan, oil light on around left handers even on 155 width 13" tyres in some circumstances and oil gauge dropping to 0-5psi under hard braking....oil light on constantly going downhill in combination with braking into left handers, as a result you then get contined starvation when you get on the power until you straighten it up at the exit. The angled pickup as used on the 1500 is much much worse under braking, and into downhill left handers but the original straight pickup pump works best in normal cornering on the flat. Both still enable you to get the oil light on quite easily numerous times on even a "commited" A-Road run...Hense a simple horinzontal baffle plate is essential. Good bearings or not there is no reason to be completely ignorant about surge. Banging on about drysumps one-day, the next day all you need is it built right...errr. A good set of scrappers/baffles goes a decent way to de-emulsifing the oil too, gives it some surfaces to run over and de-airate a bit before it's dumped back in the sump. Obviously the "relaxing" of the oil is another large benefit of the dry sump system where the main tank also acts to de-foam and de-air hardworked oil. Combine foamed up, overworked oil in combo with it sloshing all over the bottom of the engine, surging all over the place, crank ploughing it all over the internals etc each time you brake...I'd think the power gained by not having 70% of the oil in the sump flooding into the front of the engine all over the crank and being sprayed/ploughed like a muck spreader all over the crankcase is worthless too. If you're picking up foamed oil it can't de-airate before it hits the bearings can it as there is nowhere for the air to go ? Unless it's going through a tank with a height, being fed in the top and taken out the bottom, the tank also having a small "bleed" line from the top...Rather like the "deairation" tank they use on wet sump caterhams cause the foamed and emulsified oil makes the tappets rattle...So they use a funny tank, this is cause the sump is really shit with no real "pan" area and uses foam baffle. The oil gets hammered by the crank when it's ploughed and it get pulverised in the head. Many benefits to a good baffle, keeping the oil in the pan area, giving it a surface to run over before it goes back into the pan and not having it ploughed all the time. Oil can sit nice and relaxed in the sump pan and settle a bit before going into the oil system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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