EvilStart ... or is it?

[TR5tar]

One of the reasons I do not wish to spend too much on repairing that scratch on my Land Rover is that it has an issue that affects its value. 

A few years ago now I noticed that I had problems starting it in cold weather. It's a diesel by the way, with a fuel burning heater. Sometimes I could get it going, but other times not. However, in the last couple of years, as soon as the temperature dips below freezing I haven't a hope in hell of coaxing it into life. Above freezing, no problem at all. Confident that it is the glow plugs that have failed, sometime ago I inquired with a few different LR specialists about replacing them. I was surprised to find that nobody that I spoke with wanted to touch the job. It seems that the plugs in my model have a nasty habit of breaking off. I was advised of a firm (MM Motors) not too far from me that specialises in this type of work. Now, here's the shocker, given that glow plugs are not that expensive, to get this job done will cost nearly £2000 in labour.  

As I work from home and rarely venture out before midday, most of the time I can get by with this situation. However, this morning I had a hospital appointment. If the temperature had been above freezing I could have been on my way without a problem, but typically, the one morning I need to be somewhere, it's minus 3. Fortunately, I had some time before I needed to leave for the appointment, so I thought I'd try a couple of things.

I'd read up on a few tricks for starting a diesel with failed glow plugs. One was to use a hair dryer to pump hot air into the intake. I gave it a go few a few minutes, but no success, which didn't really surprise me. Another trick, apparently is to tape over the end of the exhaust. I didn't try that one today. Instead, I gave a few squirts of Easystart into the intake while turning it over. It didn't catch as I was spraying it, but after a few seconds I tried again without using the Easystart and it spluttered into life.

Now, I've read plenty online saying that using this stuff is bad for diesel engines (something about detonation occurring at the wrong point), but then other people say that it's not a major problem. What's the view here on the forum? I'll certainly not be using the stuff daily. At most, I could see myself using it once or twice a year when there's little other choice. Am I risking a major disaster?

Darren               

[Nick Jones]

Would this be a TDV6 powered LR by any chance?  They do have an evil rep for being difficult to change glowplugs on, though they are by no means alone among modern-ish diesels for this with members of the PSA diesel family being well represented.

Have you actually checked to see whether there is power getting to the glowplugs when there should be? There are other issues than can prevent them working which are easier to fix, though this may be wishful thinking.

Personally I wouldn't fret about using Easy Start occasionally.  Another route, though perhaps not justified by frequency of need in your case, would be to side-step the issue by installing a Kenlowe Hot-Start or similar so the engine never has to do a cold start (except in hotel carparks, far from home ).

BTW, one trick that rarely gets mentioned that can help alot with plug removal is to do it with the engine properly hot as the alloy heads expand more than the plugs.

What's the cranking speed like?  I had an issue with my A6 for years where it was very hard to start when the temperature was between about 6 and 10ºC but was fine above and below that temperature range.  Reason being that Audi in their wisdom decided it doesn't need any glowplug action above 6ºC, whereas the engine disagrees.  I could fool it by unplugging the relevant temperature sensor, but you had to do it on a start by start basis as leaving it unplugged caused other problems.  Anyway, I was eventually forced to replace what turned out to be a slightly duff-from-new battery, which must have nearly doubled the cranking speed and the problem is very nearly resolved though it does still take a few more turns to start in the "difficult range". With ambient over 10ºC or when warm, starting is instant - first one over the top fires.

The hot air method should work though you might need something with a bit more poke than a hairdryer and it's really a two person job as it needs to be cranked with the hot air going down the intake.

Nick

[TR5tar]

Yes, you got it Nick, TDV6. 

I checked the fuse and relay for the glowplugs, and no problem there. I've not actually checked whether power is getting to the plugs themselves, as that I'm told is not such an easy job, as they are difficult to get to. My independent specialist, who I believe is pretty good, is confident that it's the plugs, so I think it would be wishful thinking that it might be a power issue.

I have considered the sort of heater you refer to, but again the expense means it probably isn't worth it for the few times I need it. And as you say, it's not much help if I'm away from home. 

Cranking speed is good. I have a heavy duty Odyssey Extreme battery on it that's only a couple of years old, so I don't think the issue is there. I have tried giving it a bit more oomph by hooking up a booster, but no luck.

I do have a heat gun that I could try instead of the hairdryer. I'm just a bit concerned that I might melt the plastic around the intake if I use it. By having the driver's door open or window down, I can use the heat gun or the Easystart while cranking it over, as I can reach in. 

It's really just for emergencies that I need an option to get it going, where ever I might be, without causing any major damage. Opinion seems very divided on Easystart. 

Darren     

Edited December 14, 2018 by TR5tar

[PeterC]

Sump heater any good ?  for routien use not emergncy.

Peter

[Nick Jones]

Not quite sure what damage easy start is supposed to do. Yes, possibly you’ll get ignition occurring at a less than ideal point for a few cycles, but these are compression ignition engines and built to take big forces - and we are only talking between cranking and idle speeds, unloaded at that. About the worst that could happen is it fires too much before TDC and stops the starter (which doesn’t happen in my experience).

Suspect the tales of woe were built in the era of ancient agricultural diesels that didn’t have glow plugs, but started nevertheless when in decent condition. When they got knackered, they needed easy start, all the time, but it wasn’t the easy start that knackered them.

[TR5tar]

Not sure about a sump heater Peter. I know Webasto make a block heater. That's the one most people seem to go for, but it's not cheap. 

Most of what I've read on the dangers of ES is on agricultural forums Nick. There are worrying tales of bent con rods. Anyhow, I think I'll have another play with heating the air intake, perhaps with the heat gun. 

Darren

Edited December 15, 2018 by TR5tar

[oldtuckunder]

Having had a diesel Fergy 35 and a Hymac Digger with a Leyland Diesel in it, neither of which had multiple glow plugs but just a single in the inlet manifold, they were both pigs to get started when cold and Easy Start was always required. There are urban myths around old diesels that they get addicted to ES and reach the point where they just won't start without it. In both of the above cases forced by other issues they both had the heads off and a thorough decoke (boy did they both need it, inlet tracts 3/4's blocked in some cases, new head gaskets, and in the case of the Fergy new rings (a lot were missing!) and both returned to keen starters without ES except on the very coldest of mornings. So I think I'm in Nick's camp the reason they get addicted to ES is that they are just so knakered a pure compression diesel start is impossible.   Yes I think overdoing the ES could potentially cause problems, but a little squirt to help with poor glow plugs on an otherwise good engine in the very cold should probably be all right.  NB if it was me I would crank the engine over a bit to get oil on the bores etc before adding a squirt of ES.

Alan

[nang]

Turning back time I was involved with both AEC and Ford buses. AEC's always started easily as long as compression wasn't  down.(Motor worn) Ford's could be a bastard if compression was down or batteries were low.

I trust your motor is alright for compression ?

Tony.

[TR5tar]

Hi Tony, 

I've no reason to believe that there is a compression issue. Car starts and runs well as soon as the temperature is above freezing. 

I'm pretty sure it is the glow plugs, although as a friend said to me earlier, there's also the temperature sender to consider. If that is faulty, then it might not be telling the plugs that they should be heating. 

Darren 

[HARVEY S M]

An electric engine coolant pre-heater may be a solution to your problem, glow plugs can be a bit

of a nightmare to replace due to seizing in the head & there small size. If they snap it is a costly

process to replace them. You need to access the wiring to the plugs to check the supply if possible.

 

                                                             Harvey

[TR5tar]

Hi Harvey, 

Welcome to Sideways. It's good to see you over here. 

A coolant pre-heater is something I'd consider, but as you say I really need to establish whether power is getting to the glow plugs before doing anything else. Those plugs do look a bit difficult to reach, so it's probably a job I'll let my LR specialist tackle the next time he is working on the engine. 

Darren 

[Crawfie]

On 14 December 2018 at 11:38 PM, oldtuckunder said:

Having had a diesel Fergy 35 and a Hymac Digger with a Leyland Diesel in it, neither of which had multiple glow plugs but just a single in the inlet manifold, they were both pigs to get started when cold and Easy Start was always required. There are urban myths around old diesels that they get addicted to ES and reach the point where they just won't start without it. In both of the above cases forced by other issues they both had the heads off and a thorough decoke (boy did they both need it, inlet tracts 3/4's blocked in some cases, new head gaskets, and in the case of the Fergy new rings (a lot were missing!) and both returned to keen starters without ES except on the very coldest of mornings. So I think I'm in Nick's camp the reason they get addicted to ES is that they are just so knakered a pure compression diesel start is impossible.   Yes I think overdoing the ES could potentially cause problems, but a little squirt to help with poor glow plugs on an otherwise good engine in the very cold should probably be all right.  NB if it was me I would crank the engine over a bit to get oil on the bores etc before adding a squirt of ES.

Alan

Hi ....I'm Fergy the tractor and I'm a ES aholic....

welcome Fergy !!

sorry....couldn't resist !!

 

 

 

[TR5tar]

Update: I've been giving this issue some thought over the last couple of weeks and doing a bit of reading on a Landrover forum. I want to avoid the Easystart route if at all possible, as several friends have said to, so I've been looking for other "tricks". Interestingly, a friend said to me a little while back to look at the external temperature sensor, and so I paid particular attention to threads on the Landrover forum that mentioned it in conjunction with non-starting in cold conditions. Anyhow, today, as it was -3C here, I had an opportunity to try something. After taking the plastic cover off the engine in order to get to the part, I poured hot water over the sensor. Car then started up, although it did sound a bit rough for a few seconds. I'm not sure why it works, but it does. It obviously fools the car into thinking it is warmer than it is, but why that allows it to start when the glow plugs are not working is a mystery to me. No proper explanation on the LR forum that I can find.

Darren 

[Nick Jones]

I think it will be because it changes the timing of the injection point.

More advance greatly enhances the chance of the charge lighting, but tends to cause clatter.

Suspect the ECU strategy is to use less advance when glow plugs are called for to keep things civilised and heating the sensor fools it. For best results you probably want it warmed to just above the point where glow plugs are called for. Too warm might give less timing again.

Engine “damage” wise, I’d reckon the effects to be rather like ether in terms of the loads imposed by the rough combustion. But its diesel - built accordingly.