Rusty Bore

[spitNL]

 

As you can see in the pic the headgasket didn't seal properly, water got in and rusted the bore.

Engine still turns freely.

 

Now the question is what to do?

-Run as is(don't think so)

-Hone and replace rings

-Over bore and install new piston + ring

-Over bore and renew all pistons + rings

-Something else?

 

One this side (v6) just one bore is rusted, have not taken the other cylinderhead off.

 

 

Fred

[GT6 Nick]

I think you'll have to rebore all six. The pitting will be too deep for honing, and boring out one cylinder might make for rough running!

 

It would make an amusing amount of smoke if run as is though.

[pomwah]

Not sure if it's the gasket or the block but it looks like you may need to deck the block as well as the re-bore, will have to do both sides then. New rings definitely, pistons ..... mmm, couldn't be certain until they're out, cleaned and inspected.

 

It must have been sitting doing nothing for a while, what is it?

 

Cheers, James

[Nick Jones]

Hmm, reckon that is what my PI engine looked like before being driven 2000+ miles...... In all 6! Ended up reboring that.

 

Really it depends whether the rust has actually pitted the bores to any extent or if it's all surface stuff. A good clean should reveal this. Next question is then how the rings have fared and whether they are stuck.

 

Depends on what the plans for the engine are really. Will no doubt run as it is. I'd say minimum of light hone and new rings if the rusty bore is not significantly pitted/all bore generally within limits and this should be good as new. If pitted or otherwise worn then it's rebore time.

 

Nick

[JohnD]

V-6?

Alloy block, so bore linings?

Question will be, which is more expensive. Rebore and new pistons or relining and old pistons, and rings.

 

John

[spitNL]

Thanks for the suggestions, gents.

 

@JohnD, Pomwah

Engine is the Ford 3.0 v6 Essex, used in the Capri amongst others.

It's cast iron, engine and heads, so no liners to worry about.

 

@V8Nick

It's not the top of the block, it's the gasket you see in the pic.

Solid copper, which is probably why it leaked so badly.

 

@Nick Jones

Plan for the engine is to keep it original, more interested in reliablity than absolute power.

Engine was turbo'ed from new, which upped the BHP to about 220 from 130ish standard. Not looking for much more than 220.

Swap the carb for EFI.

Heads have been converted to unleaded.

 

Hope the other side is better, i'll keep you posted when I take that off.

Oh cam is shagged too.

 

Fred

[spitNL]

Pics of the tappet and cam.

[pomwah]

Looking at the colour, I'd say the oil needs changing too. Early to mid 70s or a later version?

 

Good luck!

[spitNL]

Looking at the colour, I'd say the oil needs changing too. Early to mid 70s or a later version?

 

Good luck!

 

I've never been good at judging oil vintage, but think it's safe to asume the oil has been changed several times since '78.

[Nick Jones]

Looks fairly clean to me...... should have seen the inside of my PI engine

[pomwah]

 

 

I've never been good at judging oil vintage, but think it's safe to asume the oil has been changed several times since '78.

 

Got to rub it between thumb and forefinger to be really sure! The oil that came out of my engine (Toyota 4A) looked like some evil black sludge from the tar pits of hell.

 

Is it going back into a Capri?

 

Cheers, James.

[Triumph-V8]

I am only familiar with the similar Rover V8

and would suggest to hone the bores and look than.

If clearance is still in limits (below 0.1mm) and bore is clean

block may be used although, if pistons are worn, the difference to a fine rebored engine

becomes small and it has to be stripped completely anyway

and the boring company can do the necessary cleaning perfectly.

 

Next the tappets seem to be hydraulic and have to rotate on the cam

which is a bit not rectangular (excuse my bad english) to the tappet to support rotating.

They are worn and cam and tappets should be replaced

although they would make some more miles in a Rover.

 

The disadvantage is that you have already "dwarf" in the oil

little steel dust particles that are not fully caught from the oil filter.

They do not kill an engine and in fact there is no proof of this theory at all

but I think the dwarf reduces lifetime of the engine.

 

So for somebody who does the work at home for no costs

it is a good idea to strip the whole engine and clean every corner from the dwarf.

 

If the copper gasket fails it is an indication that head or block is not parallel.

The bad one has to be found and repaired.

To rely on a gasket that can (with no doubt) better compensate misalignment

is not a good idea especially on a turbo engine.

 

Maybe just from the reason that it is a turbo they took the copper gasket to avoid

that a conventional gasket blows between the cylinders in that shallow area.

[spitNL]

Got to rub it between thumb and forefinger to be really sure! The oil that came out of my engine (Toyota 4A) looked like some evil black sludge from the tar pits of hell.

 

Is it going back into a Capri?

 

Cheers, James.

Maybe I should taste it too?

I'd rather have this:

 

Joking aside I think dirty oil is the least of the problems; if the engine was ever started with too much water in the bore it could mean bent rods and or crank.

 

The engine is not in a Capri, it's in a TVR.

 

@TriumphV8

Thanks for the advice.

The engine has solid tappets not hydraulic, but I agree they are worn and will be replaced, as well as the cam.

 

From what I understand the previous owner had lot's of problems with the headgaskets, blowing them several times. I guess he fitted the solid copper ones.

Ford had problems sealing the head gasket when this engine was new, so the reason the gasket leaked probably has more to do with the solid copper gasket itself (plus no sealing agent), rather than the mating surfaces.

Nevertheless you are right, deck straightness should and will be checked.

 

TVR had the heads modifyed to cope with the extra stress from the turbo. The heads were machined to accept a copper ring to crush the gasket better.

This engine lost it's original heads at some point, standard Ford heads are now on the engine.

I've got two 'new' heads, converted to unleaded and machined with the copper rings, ready to bolt on.

[spitNL]

Here's a pic of an original head, complete with copper rings.

They only just stand proud.

 

 

Fred

[pomwah]

I do like a stout/porter, never seen that one though.

 

If you would like to taste the oil feel free to do so, I'll stick to beer, but, you know, whatever winds your clock.

 

Cheers, James

[Triumph-V8]

That combustion chamber looks horrible! Much to shallow!

The engine must be turbocharged to get something into the cylinders!

 

But as I looked closer at the picture I did not feel the need

to aim for a special copper gasket or copper rings.

The cylinders space is not shallow,

a normal, modern quality gasket should work.

Maybe you should have one gasket custom fabricated and take it thicker

to get compression lower and compliance against bending of the head increases.

 

If the gasket blows in my opinion an overheating problem

should be encountered and other reasons should come into view.

Maybe some better cylinder head bolts might be a good idea,

maybe ARP sells them for the engine.

[GT]

That combustion chamber looks horrible! Much to shallow!

The engine must be turbocharged to get something into the cylinders!

 

Eh??!!

That's an oxymoron.

 

It's the definition of a heron head.

They Don't have a chamber!

 

Jag V12s had heron heads too, except they had SOHC & were thermally a disaster.

 

Those 2.5L/3L Essex engines were quite good, but rather heavy & they tended to hole pistons and overheat at the back.

Far better than that horrible 2.3/2.8L rubbish they made in Cologne.

 

Most people knew the reason they produced only 138bhp was because of the revolting carbs Ford used to fit on them.

 

How on earth did you find such a car in Brittany?

[Triumph-V8]

GT, I again can not agree to your opinion!

Heron is a flat surface like a diesel

and cumbustion chamber is fully in the middle of the piston.

 

Here is the chamber partly around the valves

and if you look carefully you will see that

the valves do not give a free area when lifted

but the chamber corner is more or less

an extension of the valve seat

what affects the flow negative.

 

Did have that on modified Alfasud 1500 engines

quite similar made by a well known German tuner

and by changing that arrangement to a better shape

and than rising compression to what it was before

we created a real winner at Baarlo Speedway

from an engine that was lapped before.

[GT]

Here is the chamber partly around the valves

and if you look carefully.... affects the flow negative.

 

.. a well known German tuner

.

 

Look if you want to start arguing,better not, as your "german tuners" have been helped, time and time again by a certain company in Northampton.

It even used Lucas injection, same as on the TR6.

 

 

Did you ever work on an ESSEX V6, it's the same block under the bonnet of that car.

 

They're not so bad in N/A 2V form.

Did you ever test one of those heads on a flow bench??

[joeg]

Fords early CVh 4 had a similar design, Combustion chanber mostly in the pistion recess

[spitNL]

That combustion chamber looks horrible! Much to shallow! The engine must be turbocharged to get something into the cylinders! But as I looked closer at the picture I did not feel the need to aim for a special copper gasket or copper rings. The cylinders space is not shallow, a normal, modern quality gasket should work. Maybe you should have one gasket custom fabricated and take it thicker to get compression lower and compliance against bending of the head increases. If the gasket blows in my opinion an overheating problem should be encountered and other reasons should come into view. Maybe some better cylinder head bolts might be a good idea, maybe ARP sells them for the engine.

I know the "chamber" is horrible but there's not much you can do about it.

Ford had trouble keeping the headgasket in from new, maybe partly to only using 4 bolts around the chamber and the cooling system which works on least resistance flow to distribute the coolant.

I've already got the cylinderheads with copper rings, as the other turbo's don't have any problem with this set-up I'm not going with anything else

ARP head studs are available.

 

Most people knew the reason they produced only 138bhp was because of the revolting carbs Ford used to fit on them. How on earth did you find such a car in Brittany?

Which they still use on the Turbo.

Here's the original setup. carb is already out to make way for an EFI setup.

 

New EFI setup.

 

Car was advertised on leboncoin.fr

[spitNL]

Took the other cylinderhead off this weekend.

The rust was not nearly as bad, but it did hold a nasty susprise.

 

 

See the two grooves?

It must have been running for quite a while like this, because they are quite deep.

It's difficult to measure but judging by eye I'd say they are more than 1mm/0.040" deep.

So I guess it's either a sleeve or a new block.

 

 

Fred

[Triumph-V8]

You may run into trouble with that injector arrangement.

Street use cars prefer injectors close to valves

but always behind the throttle plates

for better response and cold start and adverse weather conditions.

 

Turbos will suffer from that more because the differences of pressure are higher.

At full turbo load more fuel will condense first at manifold walls

and later atomize when throttle closes giving rich mixture

and other way round you need more enrichment on acceleration.

 

Maybe that can be ignored because the benefit is small

but on some revs fuel is blown back out of the trumpets.

That may become a problem and should not be ignored.

 

You will often have a small amount of fuel on the bottom of the box.

Rover had those problems although they placed the injectors much closer to the head

but because they used a single throttle plate they have manifold depression in the whole box.

So they could drill small holes at the bottom of the box to the manifold

where the fuel can drop away.

 

Setup of butterflies maybe tricky because you can not put measurement tool on the trumpet

and will need measuring units to connect to manifold.

A little connecting rail between the six should be enclosed otherwise throttle opening

will easily be followed by leaving one or two cylinders that go lean to poor syncronizing.

That is a nasty feeling and must be cured with richer setup in that mapping area.

Also throttle poti must be enclosed as it can not be moved outside precisely enough due to the lot of ball joints.

 

As turbos do not need wild cams it might be a good option to make a design

with a single throttle plate and manifold starting like a bathtub where the six

inlets are the lowest areas and fuel flows back into engine automatic.

This avoids two problems in one solution and can be done easily with a small box inside the existing big box

which is again another benefit. Make it inside not too high and mill a 30mm bottom plate according to six little trumpets.

Avoid volume in the box. At backfire it might blow otherwise the whole box.

 

@GT: If I see boiling water on the oven I need not put my fingers into it to know that.

This is somewhat experience and from that I think I can judge the shown chamber without flow bench.

It is the same like your car you quoted for reference for good road holding with your suspension in my Bilstein thread.

Just from the photo I found from that car being driven faster, I could judge that it is not good.

 

The video is nice but does not help to revise my decision.

Whatever is under the bonnet of the Reliant we do not know

and even if there would be a photo of the engine

we would not know what has been done inside,

and that there are some Weslake and Cossies

that run with success in German DTM is prooven with no doubt.

[GT]

Whatever is under the bonnet of the Reliant we do not know

and even if there would be a photo of the engine

we would not know what has been done inside,

What on earth are you on about?

That engine is a GAA.

Cosworth only made 100.

 

It's one of the all time "great engines".

 

They were so powerful at the time, Cosworth were (I'm told) quite relieved they didn't make more,because they made nearly as much power as their DFV V8.

 

http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-guide-pages/ford-essex-v4-v6-tuning-guide.html

 

The Essex V6 can be made to make huge horsepower completely reliably with a pair of huge valve heads being as little as 600 quid.

 

Ric has been up to a bit, the sky is pretty much the limit these days:-

http://www.ricwood.com/essexv6.html

 

The only 24V V6 engine that sounds better to my mind was the Metro 6R4 which was also designed by a guy from Cosworth, and to begin with was far less reliable, and loads more expensive.

 

(Or maybe the Lancia Stratos which was a weird 65deg V6 ferrari redeveloped engine anyhow,- a pig to balance).

 

 

I still have a weakness for the old 3.0L V6 24V Alfa which shattered the windows in the stands behind us at les essarts Rouen circuit back in the 1980s.

 

There's something magic about the sound of an uneven "90" or "65" V6 on song, compared with the Essex and late Honda NSX "60"s

 

The obvious successor to the metro engines are the FORD 3.0L Duratec V6 or the VQ which are fantastic motors.

The Mondeo/Jag X type ending up in a Noble made now by Rossion.

 

Btw:-

 

You can just bore it out, stick a set of triple carbs on in a sealed air box, or drop a modern Jag X type V6 into it?

They're dirt cheap and you can get them off the shelf for peanuts, and the lightest 3.0L V6 in the world!

 

[Nick Jones]

Took the other cylinderhead off this weekend.

The rust was not nearly as bad, but it did hold a nasty surprise.

 

See the two grooves?

It must have been running for quite a while like this, because they are quite deep.

It's difficult to measure but judging by eye I'd say they are more than 1mm/0.040" deep.

So I guess it's either a sleeve or a new block.

 

Fred

 

Ouch - either the circlip has escaped or the gudgeon pin has moved. Bad news either way......

 

Nick