V3 Microsquirt Ignition

[Nick Jones]

Ah...... I've got one of those stashed...... and I think Darren is using one also.  Was having trouble finding any other discrete, stand-alone unit as the late 80's /early 90s stuff, mostly VAG and BMW has more or less stopped appearing in scrapyards.

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                Yes it is a Bosch 0280 140 516 type.

 

I have been doing a bit of reading about these valves and I am getting all the symptoms that a modern would have with faulty valve?

 

I can get an after market one for £25 new with 2 year warranty?

 

I have not had time to take the old one off today been to a friends funeral and he was younger than me which is very sobering? that,s why I am toasting him now.

 

I am thick but what is  PID control parameters

 

You will all laugh at this at one point the tick over went up to about 2000+rpm (panic) but it was just the carpet catching the throttle pedal(relief)

 

Still 2 weeks to sort it out before we go to Spain and Portugal ? so no panic or rush/

 

Roger

[Nick Jones]

Bit on PID here

http://www.expertune.com/tutor.aspx

 

TBH, if you are not getting oscillation / hunting it's most like not the issue, though understanding how the tuning process works might help you get the best from it when it's working properly.  These valves sometimes respond to a good swill out with carb cleaner followed by a squirt of penetrating oil.

 

Are you driving all the way to Spain or getting the ferry to Santander/Bilbao?

 

Nick

[Darren Groves]

Ah...... I've got one of those stashed...... and I think Darren is using one also. 

 

Yes, that's what I've got also and in PWM Warm-Up mode it has worked pretty good. They are slightly open even at fully closed, but this has never caused an issue as I just use the TB to set the idle speed.

 

I had a selection of them at one point, they can get a bit sticky but a squirt of WD40 freed mine up no problem. 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

Boat to Bilbao £465 including cabin both ways! Would cost more to drive with a couple of b&b,s

 

 

I think I may have found my problem! I removed the Bosch valve and gave it a good clean then set about testing it and I could see it oscillating and I had noticed the water temperature jumping a bit (has always done it)

 

So rummaged and found another sensor (wrong calibration) but recalibrate it and it is as steady as a rock and the idle air valve is as well.

 

So fingers crossed it may have been the problem as the idle air valve is partly driven by the water temperature.

 

Will give it a try out in the next couple of days (to hot and busy today)

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             Well that,s done it I have booked Spitty in for a rolling road session at a local place(there are lots close by it was hard to choose but some busy etc) but this man knew what I meant when I said I have fitted EFI with Micro/Megasquirt and has software so thats a plus?

 

I told him I had got it reasonably sorted(2000miles) but its a bit rich and I do not want to lean it off anymore without being tested.

 

I am not after max power(It only started as a whim!!!!) but would be nice to get it right through the whole range and I can see 45mpg+ when cruising being achievable(so will get my money back in about 10years )

 

A plus is we can talk cash! and he thinks max 2 hours if I have got it close?

 

I am going out this afternoon to do a bit more testing and autotuning and to see if the idle air problem has been solved?

 

Roger

 

ps just in time for Spain/Portugal trip of about 2000/2500miles

[Nick Jones]

2 hours should be plenty.

 

The way my guy likes to work is I take my laptop with software and I sit in the passenger seat while he "drives" the car and RR and tells me "more fuel" or "less fuel" or same for timing.  One good trick was setting the best ignition timing for the cruise regions  (ie 50 - 70 mph in top gear) which involves knowing roughly what manifold pressure / throttle position (engine load) you have on the road and him being able to set the rolling road to maintain a specific speed.  The driver tries to maintain the right load area and you tap the timing up and watch (hopefully) the torque come up, level off and start to drop away.  You want to set it just before the point where it starts to level off (gives a bit of margin).  Pinking sets in just after the torque drop off starts.  You should end up with it romping along on just a sniff of throttle, which helps economy considerably.

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                I am not sure if I can do it that way as I do not know the man! Still I may take a print out to show him!

 

I went out testing this afternoon and now have a lot more green on the cell weighting and I thought the idle problem was solved until the LAST 1/2 mile when it started doing it again(1500rpm tickover)

 

So I drove home and left it running and the idle cranking duty was showing 34(which is closed on my valve) and pinching the bypass hoses slowed it down! so I can only conclude it is a faulty idle valve that plays up when hot or over worked?

 

Adjusting throttle plates did not slow it down and checking the air flow through them did not alter when I pinched the bypass hoses.

 

So have a cup of tea and let it cool down and after a slight adjustment of the throttle plates it was back to normal and I could see the opening changing in one of the screens when the fan cut in to maintain the tickover

 

I have ordered an aftermarket one for £26 not pay £100+ for a Bosch one!

 

I am sure I will laugh about this when it is all sorted????? but other than that She was going well.

 

Roger

 

ps Just a thought I have 2 x 9"fans on a full width radiator controlled by a dual thermostat and at the moment and has been since fitted the right hand fan looking from the front cuts in first and blows the air across the alternator.(the left hand one never comes on only if I over ride the thermostat)belt and braces?

I was thinking would it be better for the left hand fan to blow across the throttle bodies and exhaust first to try and remove a bit more heat from under the bonnet?

I do not suppose it would make much difference but every little would help?

[Nick Jones]

I was going ask if you were sure the idle issue wasn't throttle body / linkage induced caused by heat.  Sounds like you are.

 

Mine is reasonably insensitive to underbonnet temps (certainly compared to the carbs, which were very bad!) - just suffers a bit from stupid IAT readings briefly after hot starting which make it run lean.

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

 Hello All

             I have decided to change the fan control around(2 plugs to swap!)

 

I have carried out a scientific experiment on the change!(a thin strip of news paper hung a various places) and the air blows it against the bulkhead!

 

So it must be blowing between the side valences and the exhaust heat shield and engine so should help take a bit of heat from the exhaust when stationary?

 

Well that's the theory plus the one fan has been working for 3 to 4 years so time to use the other one as main one.

 

Plus it blows over the air box and IAT so may stop heat soak in this area?

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                Thank,s for the PID Tutorial I understand all of the words on their own but when put together its way over my pay grade(or could just be my very old brain?)

 

My new aftermarket Idle air valve came today so after checking and testing it (closed and open at different PWM) I fitted it and seemed to be going well(big smile) until it did the same(high tick over)B****r I thought or words to that effect?

 

So after a lot of head and bum scratching I think I can see my problem in the closed loop idle settings I had gone with default(never trust default!) and the Idle valve closed duty was 14.5% and the Idle valve open duty was 60% !!!!!!!

 

Well my old valve was 34.5% and 72% and the new one is 40% and 90% so I think what was happening  occasionally the tick over went a bit above target(800rpm) and so it tried to slow it down by closing the valve a bit more but all it did was open it due to the design of the valve.

 

So then it became a vicious circle and closed(opened) it more!

 

I could see in the test modes it had dropped to 20%

 

School boy error ? but when I was at school lessons were still done on a slate? (well almost) transistors were still new and Mr Microsoft was a baby? 

 

So that,s my excuse!

 

It would also explain why I could not get a faster tick over on a cold engine as it was stopping 10% short of full open?

 

But this is all theory as not driven the car as it is P*****g down but off to the Birmingham TR Register Conkers tomorrow so that will be the test (I have been a member since god was a boy? Membership No 172(now that does make me feel old?) but still here a kicking unlike a lot of mates?

 

Roger

 

ps you all have my permission to laugh now!

[Nick Jones]

If this is the final fix then very well done!

 

I'm certainly not going to laugh as at some point in the fairly near future I'm going to reading and re-reading yours and Darren's threads on this subject and probably asking dumb questions......

 

I wouldn't worry about the PID thing.  I don't really get it properly either and I worked in industrial controls for a number of years.  I do know a man who does though.....

 

"Default" can be like "assume"......

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

               I did not know there was going to be a exam at the end of this project!

 

I have forgot were I started from?

 

I have noticed I have started writing things down lately! (the trouble is then can not find the bit of paper)

 

Ho Hum

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

I have been thinking about this project and the confusion I have had!

 

TunerStudio is a good piece of software but I think the help boxes could be more helpful!

 

Even if you click on the help heading at the top of the screen it only tells you the same as the question marks by each setting?

 

I know people will say if you do not understand it you should not be messing but all this kit Microsoft etc is aimed at the diy market (well that,s how I see it) and we are not all computer whizz kids and most of them could not fit the hardware (that has been my experience in industry)

 

Roger

 

Ps just making excuses for my c****k ups but I hope I have helped others not to fall into the same trap?

[Nick Jones]

I don't find the TS help boxes very helpful either - possibly because I'm not smart enough to understand the answers.

 

I certainly appreciate your "warts and all" reporting and I think it provides a very useful record and guide - thanks for taking the time!

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick any any others with Stamina?

                                                                Well took Spitty to TR conkers and thought all was going well!

 

Start up is better and warm up but then she decided to have a fast tick over again!!!!!!

 

I have noticed when testing the new idle air valve it seemed to stick a bit but just thought it was how I was testing?

 

But then I made the school boy mistake by changing 2 things at same time (valve and software settings) so I still do not know which is causing the problem?

 

One thing I noticed when the tick over was fast if I turned off and restarted it was back to 750/800rpm tick over.

 

So I am thinking the new valve may be sticking because when its powered off it goes to the slightly open position and when re-powered it goes to what ever position the software tells it! so hot engine should tell it closed after start(it open fully on power on)

 

So I am going to fit the old valve and adjust Idle duty to suit as I still think it is a software error in first place an may be a dodgy new valve(plus I think Spitty is a bit sensitive with 4 TB,s?)

 

Roger

 

There is a sound of Manic Laughter in my garage!!!!!!!!!!! still no one said it would easy but this is taking mick!

 

But still compared to all those poor people caught up in these bombings etc I have not a thing to complain about its only Bloody old car so not important at ALL?

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             I have refitted the old idle air valve and adjusted the software.

 

So had the engine running and warmed up and now in the test modes I can slow the tick over down while its being maintained by the close loop setting(test mode over rides it) and when I turn the fans and lights on I can see the valve being opened to hold the idle speed.

 

So hoping now it was software settings that were wrong(but been there before?)

 

I tried the ShadowTuner yesterday on the tablet thing and it seemed to record things just got to work out how to see the files? it seems as though I have to up load them to EFI Analytics? or some thing like that? (not sure I will understand them when and if I do?)

 

Roger

[Nick Jones]

Shadow Tuner...... I had to google that!

 

Looks like you do need to create yourself a Shadowtune account and set your device to upload to it.  You can then download the resulting .msl file from there to Megalogviewer.  

 

Megalogviewer, if you've not encountered it already, is a very handy bit of software that turns your datalog data into active graphs.  In the early days of MS, before TS existed it was a vital aid to the fairly basic "Megatune" software provided by B & G.

 

However, note that although it used to be true freeware and was I think was Phil Tobin's entry point to the engine management arena, it is now more like "free trial" as they've introduced a "nag" that effectively makes you wait longer and longer the more often you use it to attempt to force you to buy the licence.  I'm up to about 6 minutes now after making the mistake of upgrading without reading the small print. I have great respect for Phil Tobin and I even coughed up for the licence for the full version of TS, but that little trick pisses me off, so I won't buy the licence for MLV.

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             Just been out in spitty for the 4 monthly blood letting!(Not one to brag! but I will it was donation 112 )

 

The tick over problem seems better(been here before?) its a bit low on a cold engine then goes up to 1000/1200rpm as it warms up which seems about right?

 

I did have one moment of the 1400/1500rpm but it seems as though the engine needs to be really warm(hot) then it settled down to 750/800rpm.

 

It still a little bit unpredictable on throttle off and sometimes seems to dip quite low but that may be down the the fueling being a bit off?

 

I am not going to touch it now until it has been on the rolling road tomorrow and see if it improves in this area.

 

But it is closer to liveable with now and I can see it is a bit rich in places so if the man can lean it off a bit I can see 45mpg being well within reach if not more on steady cruising with the Memsab on board down through Spain and Portugal.

 

Roger

 

ps I had to put the hood up as it was raining I forgot how noisey it is(I rebuilt the diff but still whines a bit and the inner splines on the sun wheels are very worn!) plus my new rear spring and bushes squeak(I should have fitted the superpro ones back in not leave the ones it came with?)

[Nick Jones]

You should be aiming for 50mpg for moderate speed, long distance cruising.  Once got 43 mpg out of the Vitesse..... that was cruising in France with Management supervision...... and a 1500 Spitty with OD should be able to improve on that by a fair margin I reckon.

 

Don't talk to me about diffs.  Our (second one) is audible a 70 mph with the top DOWN.....  Doesn't help that you practically sit on top of it.

 

Well done on the blood giving.  I went once as a new student in the late 80's but as soon as they discovered I'd spent much of my teenage in the HIV capitals of the world (Swaziland & Botswana) they chased me away!  

 

Nick

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             We have all been on the rolling road?

 

The man there is the same as what nick said I sat in the car while he drove it(the only downside for him was his remote control is broken so he had to keep getting in and out of the car) And I adjusted the fuel cells while he looked at the data.

 

 He took it for a spin around the block before testing and said to me it feels rich and sluggish.

 

We have turned the fuel cells down a lot and she feels better now and my AFR meter slows a lot leaner

 

The BHP was a bit down on what I hoped for but it is a tired engine but the torque curve looks good for cruising?

 

Plus the economy should be better now?

 

I turned off the closed loop while testing and we have got the tick over to about 1000rpm but I will have another play now I know the fuel cells are better.

 

The ignition map was altered on the full throttle area to a bit more advance! he said the rest looked ok and nothing to extreme.

 

I was there for about 2.5hrs+ and gave him £150 he asked for £140 so I was pleased and I can always tinker a bit now with other setting as long as his tune is saved?

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             I have been looking at all the settings since the rolling road and I am wondering if I should turn the AFR table off for now as the way I read it it will be trying to alter the fuel cells to the nominal targets that I set which on average are rich!

 

Which will not what was set on the rolling road?

 

What I want is TunerStudio to adjust the AFR targets to suit the VE table?(I think?)

 

Roger

[Nick Jones]

With a well used engine and original cam I don't think there's anything wrong with the numbers.  As you say a torquey engine is usually nicer drive for everyday cruising.  I wouldn't take too much notice of the absolute numbers anyway.  The reason the power is low is that it runs out of puff early - either due to the cam or possibly exhaust side (can't remember what you have).

 

You are correct about your AFR table - but what you really need to do is to alter it so it reflects the tune you've ended up with and stops try to tune away from it.  Not quite sure what the easiest way of doing this is.

 

There are ways of incorporating the AFR table into the fuel calculation so that changing the target table values directly affects the tune.  That really needed to be done before the major tuning took place.  I did try this once on the PI and it messed things up mightily so I promptly put it back.

 

I guess you can tune using the AFR table as the input point but unless you set the tuning parameters aggressively (not risk free) it will make the tuning process slow.

 

Some of that AFR table stuff here

 

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/Megasquirt2_Setting_Up-3.4.pdf/Megasquirt2_Setting_Up-3.4.html

 

If you figure it out perhaps you can explain it to me......

 

Nick

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

First thing I done after my RR session was to export all the tables and save the tune, at least you can go back to them if you start messing around and screw something up   .

 

Your numbers are close to what I got from a newly rebuilt 1300, but I'm not getting anywhere near the economy you seem to achieve. Not that I have been monitoring closely, but on a run back from Surrey a few weeks ago which included a bit of town driving, a bit of sitting in heavy traffic and a lot of 60-70mph cruising I got around 36mph.

 

Did it fix the dip in revs as it drops back to idle? Mine idles around 850rpm but drops to 650/700rpm as you come to a stop, soon recovers but would be good to fix.

 

Anyway, good result for you today  .

 

Darren

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Nick

                I have a 4/2/1 exhaust with the wheelbarrow tail pipes but mine has a middle box which stops it being to noisy.

 

The cam is Triumph grind on large journal 65/25/25/65 and about 9.5 to 1 compression and cleaned up ports.

 

The torque should be good for cruising at 70/80MPH (Spitty is 3000rpm for 70mph in top) its a 28% overdrive! so about 3000 to 3500 rpm!

 

Do you like the wall art? the man is into Ford RS2000,s etc

 

Spitty dumped some oil on the floor from my new breather pipe but it was bloody hot and stressed! I think I will reconnect the rocker box one as well(tired engine?)

 

If I look at the places were Tuner Studio did its auto tuning and note the fuel cell number to what is there now it should give me a clue?

 

I think I need to print out all the tables and open a bottle of wine? then sit there and scratch my head etc?

 

I may turn the closed loop back on as it only looks at low down revs so I do not think it can do to much harm? and I don,t think it alters the fuel cells it just seems to give a bit more fuel and air(well that,s what it looks like to me when watching it)

 

Roger