Nick Jones Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Carl, 3 Bar should be a good start point for the Omega injectors - that's what they run at as standard. If you have trouble getting lean enough at idle then maybe reduce a bit. Andy, Nothing wrong with brass compression fittings. If using with nylon tube, make sure you fit the brass ferrule inside the tube or they tend to escape eventually. Have you considered fuel surges and pick-up issues? Suspect the Spit tank could suffer quite badly with this. Maybe consider an external gravity fed swirl pot prior to the HP pump and return to that? Mk2 Golf/Jetta GTI have a pump assembly including swirl housing that would probably do it. Use the later version from electronic injection cars (post '86) Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andythefat Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 That's a great idea Nick, will look in to it. Do you think the pump will flow enough for a 3ltr? Sorry to hijack the thread! Keep up the good work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That is a good question - forgotten you had the 3.0 Alfa....... Alfa approx. 200HP, Golf 110 hp...... might be a bit close! Also seen people use large fuel filter housings as swirl pots. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Do you think the pump will flow enough for a 3ltr? I am using the smallest pump for the V8. Reason is that the pump heats up the fuel and I will not do more than requiered. As you can make a log with megasquirt you can be sure never to spoil a engine from too lean mixture if done right. Make a full throttle log and look on the AFR and be sure all is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 as my fuel lines runs next to the exhaust, i guess the fuel will be hot no matter what i do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 had to get new oil cooler hoses made up to cure the oil leak, no other progress made this week as the wife's in hospital again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 1.) Hot fuel does not work 2.) Use isolator (Glass fibre tubes with sillicone) 3.) Use fuel cooler from VW or BMW diesel 4.) Warmer fuel makes excessive noise at the pressure controller. 5.) At idle nearly the full electrical power of the pump is used to cook your fuel. 8 Amps pump means 8 x 13V = 100 Watts to boil the fuel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 ok did some very late night work last night, I am bit confused about how to wire up the fuel injectors, i know they need to be in 2 banks of three, but not sure which ones to put in which banks i.e 123 and 456 or 135, 246? any help would be welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Opinions vary. Not sure it matters all that much. I used 135 /246 on both mine - the logic being that this gives the most even loading on the fuel rail. If you have Omega V6 injector loom you'll find that if you unwrap it you can rearrange it to suit your I6. Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I used 3 squirts per cycle to have nearly similar fuel delay before inlet opens on all cylinders when used 123 and 456 for the two channels. Noticed slightly better idle compared to 1 squirt but not much. At higher revs I did not notice any difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 update and suggestions please..... have installed the edis 6 and megasquirt /s, the first unit is a ms2.2 nad to be honest had some shifty mods on it so i have had to re-wire it and remove the shifty mods, this means it now works on the stimulator. the new ms1 ver 3 i built had a missing bridge for the edis system which is now also rectified. when i tried to start the car i got nothing, just the start up pump prime and then no sign of cranking on tunerstudio, so scratched my head a lot, and then phoned a friend (cheers Nick) who suggested the edis was not working as at should as the fuel pump should start when a pip/saw is detected, so investigated the crank sensor and found it to be rather SH£T, so swapped it out for the orginal omega one i had, this produced a spark and showed cranking on tuner studio it also started and back fired. i tried to start it again and i can still see cranking on the tunerstudio but it appears as if i have no spark. need to wire in the sensor properly and shield it again, but am a bit confused about the whole thing.... can anyone confirm the firing order for a tr6 on edis using a vauxhall omega coil pack, and why would i not get a spark from edis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 First off - well done! Popping and spitting means that you are almost there but probably have the plugs leads on in the wrong order........ .......Ah..... coil packs and firing order! I always struggle with this - trial and error - mostly error! Firing order of the engine is 1-5-3-6-2-4. As this is a wasted spark system with 3 coils joined into a single unit, the cylinders firing 360º apart share the same coil so 1 - 6 2 - 5 3 - 4 Note that the firing order of the Omega is different and the shared coil pairs will be different. Take NO NOTICE of any numbers marked on the coil - they will be wrong (same goes for Ford coil packs). Getting the pairs is easy - working out which order EDIS fires the coils in is a bit harder and does also on depend on whether you have wired the coilpack to the EDIS the way Ford expected. You can cheat and use a timing light to show you which coil pack is 1 - 6. It'll be the one that lights up your timing marks. There aren't that many combinations! As for the no-spark-now scenario - I'd get the wiring and sensor mount secure first - it will almost certainly be something to do with this. Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I would cut off the signal back from MS to the EDIS, I think it is the SAW. Now you have the EDIS in emergency mode with spark advance at 10 degrees. Next step is to do a data logging with Tunerstudio and watch it with the Megalog viewer. You can detetct if the cranking rpm is stable at somewhat 150 to 300 rpm. If that is the case it would be time to look if sparks can be detectetd at all. If not, the EDIS is faulty. If so you will have to connect the right coils to the right cylinders like shown above. Than try to check spark advance, sometimes you can use a strobe even at cranking. While testing I would plug out one cable of the fuel pump relay and remove spark plugs for easier cranking and not flooding the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 still no life or spark...... getting rather impatient, tried the plastic sensor and got no crank signal, tried the metal body sensor and got a crank signal, but no spark, when i got a spark, it was when i held it in my hand i noticed on the crank sensor it has a + pressed into the metal work, does this mean it needs a positive earth and not the negative one its getting? the whole thing is very frustrating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 when i got a spark, it was when i held it in my hand i noticed on the crank sensor it has a + pressed into the metal work, Do not quite catch what you are telling us. Hopefully you can not generate a spark when holding a VR sensor in your hand. The VR sensor generates a proper signal when wired correctly. When wired crosswise the MS does not work but I heard that EDIS has a circuit to compensate that. Anyway as long as nobody knows precisely I would recommend to use the correct sensor especially for this EDIS and try both wirings. Normally with a used EDIS comes the sensor and from the colours of the wiring one can get a proper connection. Maybe it would be a good advice to buy a used EDIS VR sensor including the connected cable from Ebay and try that. The first step must be to have a reliable spark from EDIS without use of MS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 unfortunately the edis modules i got did not come with the vr sensors. So i went to the scrap yard today and went on a mission to find a selection of sensors, i got three of ford KA's and a few of audi's etc, got home and tried the two wire ford KA one's and guess what it sparks again.... the engine did back fire this is not a problem though as its probably just the firing order now I need to make new brackets, and this time I will test fire the spark plugs and coil firing order on my bench engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Sounds like progress is being made. I use Fiesta VR sensors which may well be the same a Ka as I think it's the same basic engine. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 wired the edis 6 and coil packs to my omega coil pack tonight....... first thought the trigger wheel or sensor was mounted in the wrong place as no1 was showing at about 220 degrees, so started to question everything again, i eventually realized that the edis was firing the coils in the wrong sequence, but of swapping around and i now have it firing at about 8 degrees before tdc, so will now complete the install on the tr6 and fire it up! if it works will install on the pi next week too. i will try and post pictures and diagrams for future reference along with part numbers. (thanks again nick) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well that's good, seems we did get it more or less right the first time! Nearly time for some 6 cylinder music! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 **** update **** It's alive! managed to run it up, was as rough as nails though, and running so rich that two hours later there is still a dense fog circling around the garage... it ran better when i plugged the temp and air flow sensors in (which are not calibrated yet) It seems the fuel is set very rich. When I dialed down the fuel on pressure regulator to 20 PSI it got a bit better. So where can i learn about how to program the required fuel? And does anyone know how to measure the sensors so i can convert and calibrate the values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Well done! I believe the phrase you need is " I have made fire" delivered in suitably dramatic tones - Craig does it really well Surprised it even ran with the sensors uncalibrated, never mind unplugged! What kind of temperatures does MS show when they are plugged in? All you need is here (and quite alot more besides!) http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html Required fuel is on the constants page http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Software_Manual.htm#constants But that won't much help you until you have the sensors calibrated to give realistic figures. To measure the sensor characterstics you need a thermometer of some kind and a multimeter to measure the sensor resistance. I then measure the sensor resistance at 0ºC (melting ice in a glass) and then at around 40ºC and then at around 80ºC (exact measurement points not critical, just the resistance measurements to match the temperatures). I think you only need 3, though getting a couple more helps to check you are getting a sensible result - should all lie on a straight line when plotted on a graph resistance vs. temperature. I've never actually changed the calibrations on my MS1 ECUs as I've always used the default GM family sensors so you'll need to read up on that. Cheers Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdn12345 Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 tried using megatherm to convert my sensors and got nowhere, so just for shits and gigles i investigated the resistance in the version 2.2 ecu and found they where none responsive which was interesting, so swapped them for a few spares ones from my v3 build and guess what i have coolant sensor reading at a fairly accurate rate, need to buy a resistor for the inlet air temp, it looks as if the board was modified to suit an old ford. Ran up the car tonight on the wideband sensor, and noted it runs a bit lean on constant revs, but when you hit the throttle it is of the chart rich (also spits out a black smog) it hen settles again, anyone know what setting causes this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Holding revs under no load will give you quite high manifold vacuum. At this point the map will be set to give you lean running (14 - 15 AFR approx). When you hoof it, two things happen: The manifold vacuum will drop sharply and the ECU will look to the top lines of the fuelling map and add alot more fuel and also the acceleration enrichment function will briefly kick-in also adding more fuel. So what you are seeing is basically normal allowing for the fact that the ECU is not setup for your engine yet and that you still have to fully sort the temperature sensors. I'm actually surprised it'll run anything like properly without the air temperature sensor operating properly as this air temp forms part of the basic fuelling calculation! I know if I forget to plug mine in the engine doesn't even start. The ver 2.2 hardware build manual has this to say about the sensor bias resistors: Air temp - R4 Coolant temp - R7 In standard build these are 2.49K ohm to suit GM sensors If you want to use different sensors and don't want to re-flash the processor (using Easytherm or whatever) then you need to swap out R4 and R7 for resistors which match the the resistance of the sensor you are using when it is at 81ºF (27ºC). You need to read through this an grasp the basics - yes there is quite a bit of it - but you'll need it. http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Tuning_Manual.htm Hope this helps Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 VE Table for the engine is like cloth, it must fit. As there are fat and skinny people and tall and little ones all of that must be taken into account. You stepped into a shop, grabbed a shirt and it fits. So you are very, very lucky. If you have trouble with the sensors the first step must be to get proper readings from them. They influence the fuelling over such a large range, that they must be precise. One way to cheat for testing is to fit adjustable resistors, maybe from an old radio. In TS you have to make gauges for air and water temp and set them close to levels you have actually at the engine by using the trimming resistors. But anyway, you will need perfect data from them so why not buy the recommended ones for 40 bucks? Next step is to find the coarse area of fuel-timing and match the VE table to the used injectors. This is done in the the general settings and was already explained. Next step is to match the VE table to the used cam. I suppose you use speed density system. The cam influences the vacuum and although you always have 100 on full throttle the lower values, maybe at idle, may vary from 70 down to 20 and that is a lot! What will be on one cam nearly more than half opened throttle is only idle at other cams. Idle vacuum line is nice positioned 1/3 over the lowest points of the table. Engine will reach lower values than idle at higher revs and nearly closed throttles and also needs values for these points. RPM range than must fit to the engine, too. At last you key in values in the VE table and get a coarse setup especially the idle can be setup to get engine started and idle properly and may than use autotune with a wideband sensor to do the work. For that you need to setup an AFR table first that autotune knows what mixture you will want at what engine status. The accel should be set very high that it does not interfear with the setup attempts of autotune. This will give quite a bad engine behaviour but helps to setup the table. This is a coarse plan how I used MS2 and an additional diving into the paperwork will be necessary to get good results with fuel injection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6MK3 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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