Equalising Oil Pressure in the Triumph 6 cylinder

[lordleonusa]

OK, let's make this thread head off in a different direction.

 

Now I have got the 3-AN hose installed in the Mocal Angled adaptor, (the one I have with the oil cooler take-off), my thoughts have turned once again to re-installing the oil cooler itself, this time, sideways up the left side of the alloy water radiator.

 

I realise that I do NOT have:

 

A) a photo of the installation as it was on my Vitesse, from April 1997? to mid-1999, when the radiator (which used to be below the water radiator), was damaged by a speed hump - that'll teach me to drive my car with three nurses in it!

 

a thermostat in my system.

 

What I DO have, is the Mocal angled oil cooler adaptor, three new hoses (one long & two short) with BSP fittings, a new 13-row oil cooler radiator, plus an in-line Mocal BSP screw fit oil temperater gauge adaptor.

 

Therefore, a few questions spring immediately to mind.

 

1) do I need a thermostat in my summer use only fast road car

 

2) where might I find a diagram of how to fit this kit.

( I do have an idea of how to do it, but cannot seem to find a diagram anywhere, and I like diagrams, because that's the way I am wired)

 

3) if I cannot find a diagram and have to do it without one, can anyone remind me if the temperature should be measured on the return line, FROM the oil cooler radiator?

 

4) an idea of the lengths of the hoses required, as they look a bit short to me, and if I source and install a thermostat, I will need more, probably from Mocal, unless Steve from Las Vegas has any better suggestions.

 

Many Thanks in advance for the font of knowledge that is this forum.

 

L

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

    

[lordleonusa]

Just about the only decent picture on the net of a Triumph 6 cylinder oil cooler installation is from our pal up north, Andre!

 

Well done to him!

 

I have taken the liberty of borrowing one of his photos, for the illustrative purposes of this discussion:

 

I have indicated the direction of oil flow in yellow - as I understand it, and the yellow splodge is supposed to be the position of the oil temperature gauge sensor adaptor...

 

or have I got it all wrong again?

 

What does team sideways think?

 

Regards

 

Léon

[neilnaz]

Leon that is how mine routes on my Spitfire 1500 although I have the radiator installed in a different position (irellevant). The thermostat is a good thing irrespective of usage (race/fast road/pootle/dawdle) as having the oil cooler in circuit from cold means that your engine is getting cold oil circulating for longer which is, as far as I am aware, not a good idea. I imagine it is even worse if you like giving the car a good thrashing.

 

The thermostat stops oil going through the radiator until it reaches a certain temperature (sorry if I am teaching Grandma!) then it opens and starts cooling the oil enabling fast warm up and then hopefully relatively constant oil temperature once that temperature is reached. This depends on modulation of the flow through the radiator (closing and opening of the stat).

 

If I were you I would copy what Andre has done in terms of putting a stat in to eliminate the cold oil for too long syndrome.

 

best regards, Neil

 

[GT]

Very smug dismissal Gareth, I guess you can go home when you break something but I've already proven I'll do what it takes to make the race.   Even your magical Jag is gonna break.  

 

Don't agree, I don't want to race ANY car with an engine that's going to grenade, and I never will.

 

People know & disliked the fact I used to DRIVE my car to the circuits, race & then drive home.....not some namby pamby distance in the UK, but ACROSS Europe, I even left the A/C & radio in there  

 

I was so certain the engine was brick built, I used to drive it regularly at 150mph.

Funnily enough, the same engine is still running today some 5 years later, still 80psi oil pressure & I'm 100% sure if I had to race it tomorrow it would be fine.

 

The only problem I ever had was a suspect load of fuel from a supermarket (not any where near a circuit).

I reckon they put 2-3L of water in the tank. (Try proving it!)

 

The result was, it suddenly holed a piston with no warning at 135mph, but it still got me back to the workshop on 5!

(It was then a right nightmare to find ONE piston from another s/h set & take off 35g to get it all back to weight)

Threw it all back together again, torqeing the conrod bolts by feel, and it's never missed a beat since!

 

I liked that "engineering to win" stuff.

 

If you engineer it right it will NEVER EVER go wrong.

NO IFS.

Engines don't depend on witchcraft, they are designed to go round and round and produce power from petrol.

 

TBH if your car has been so put together as to be able to be driven flat out for hours at a time on some German motorway, then it's highly unlikely suddenly to come unstuck on some silly 100km quick zap of a few laps round a race circuit, a few laps of the 'ring or a 6km hillclimb at 35C ambient.

[lordleonusa]

Does everyone agree that is where I am supposed to put the oil temperature gauge sender unit?

 

see aforementioned yellow splodge.

 

L

[lordleonusa]

I found another reference on the net. I knew I'd seen one somewhere...

 

Chris Kantarjarvie (sp?) of California has a race-spec GT which he autocrosses.

 

www.dimebank.com/Bubbaspec.html

 

This is from that site:

 

I also added an oil cooler in a custom frame, designed to just nestle into the radiator support bracket. The cooler sits vertically on the driver's side of the radiator. The inlet is at the bottom, with a check valve to prevent the cooler from draining while the engine is off. There's a Mocal cooler thermostat, a temperature sender, and the TRF oil cooler and spin-on filter adapter kit, along with plumbing made of Earl's super stock hose and -10 fittings. A FRAM PH3614 filter just barely fits. Despite an anti-drainback valve, there's still a little bearing knock at cold startup, but it's much improved over the stock setup and the oil pressure stays at 60 psi hot with Mobil 1 20W-50, though it drops below 30psi at idle hot. I have a slightly modified Smiths "safety" dual gauge in the dash that shows oil pressure and temperature. In addition, I have changed the oil pressure "idiot light" switch to one that comes on at 30psi instead of the stock 7psi, and added a line to feed extra oil to the rocker gear.

 

I run Mobil 1 oil, which may actually be reducing the amount of heat that is removed from the engine via the oil cooler; it is known for heat rejection. But it is also known for protecting the engine.

 

At least Chris has the temperature sender unit adaptor in place, although he has used a different engine block adaptor, but sadly, now I am even more confused by the correct position of my temperature sender unit adaptor.

 

Steve? anyone?

 

L

 

 

[triumphlux]

Doesn't the oil flow the other way round .... the hot oil going from top to bottom in the radiator ... then the oil temp sender in Chris setup would make sense ....   :

[neilnaz]

The position of the temperature sensor in that set-up is monitoring oil temperature on the return to the oil filter after flowing through the oil cooler (or not depending on whether the stat has opened) so it is monitoring cooled oil that will be entering the engine. I imagine that would be absolutely fine. The oil should enter the oil cooler at the bottom.

 

Neil

 

[lordleonusa]

Neilnaz is quite right, where he says that:

 

The position of the temperature sensor in that set-up is monitoring oil temperature on the return to the oil filter after flowing through the oil cooler (or not depending on whether the stat has opened) so it is monitoring cooled oil that will be entering the engine. I imagine that would be absolutely fine. The oil should enter the oil cooler at the bottom.

 

Therefore, as I suspected, I put the yellow splodge representing the oil temperature sensor in my above scribbles of André's photo in the wrong place!

 

Typical of me, but at least I realised that it didn't seem quite right, hence my research and request here for conformation.

 

Thanks Neilnaz, and André!

 

Hmmm, I wonder if Chris' 'non-return valve' is a good idea, or not?

 

L

 

ps. here is a new photo from André

 

[Nick B.]

ermmm, what is the idea with the insulation on the hoses in Andres GT6? Avoiding the oil cools before it reaches the oil cooler?? Or is it to protect hoses from whatever could cause harm?

 

Cheers

Nick

[neilnaz]

Nick I would imagine it would be to prevent damage as you suggest. I have rubber hoses on my installation and, in retrospect, should have gone for the braided variety. I haven't had and issues with failure but I do have a good look at the hoses from time to time just to make sure. The problem of damage is much reduced with the braided hose (I would have thought?)

 

Neil

[lordleonusa]

I am sure Andre will answer, but I believe he is protecting the hoses from damage, and intends to re-route the whole system in the Spring.

 

L

[JohnD]

Of course an oil/water cooler can make for a different layout:

[GT]

I am sure Andre will answer, but I believe he is protecting the hoses from damage, and intends to re-route the whole system in the Spring.

 

L

 

I can assure you he is right.

 

Unprotected rubber hoses are F>>>>>>>>>G! useless as I found out at Castle combe.

 

I never EVER fitted non braided hoses to a car after that...it cost me an engine and block......

 

(the one and only time)

 

 

[lordleonusa]

Hi, I have done more research online today, and found a few more answers.

 

I have also drawn up a schematic of my intentions.

 

To follow when I have chowed down.

 

L

[lordleonusa]

OK, I am back, (my 18 year old daughter made us dinner!)...

 

Anyhow, I found this site and a useful diagram, similar to one kindly supplied by André this morning.  

 

www.motionaero.com/files/mocal_oil_thermostats.pdf

 

This served to confirm the direction of flow of the oil through the OT2 thermostat that I will be using.

 

Then, this much more useful site:

 

http://www.batinc.net/main.htm

 

which lead to this one:

 

http://www.batinc.net/hoses.htm

 

I was pleased to find:

 

http://64.202.180.37/files/phose.pdf

 

and have decided that I will initially fit some FBN/FC332 AQP (in black), because of ease of fitting, ie: I can determine overall length required, (with André's help), and order that length, plus some for error with some of the special one-way push on BSP connectors, and then later, when fully satisfied with my install, I will get some of the braided hose.

 

This is the part that impressed me the most:

 

Textile/Rubber Hose Information

Textile hose incorporates a synthetic rubber inner, one layer of textile braid reinforcement, and synthetic

outer layer. We supply textile hose in two main types. Our Mocal "Moquip" brand, SAE 100 R6, is suited

to most oil plumbing applications with a suggested temperature rating of 250f degrees and a working

pressure of 400 psi. Hose (R6) is designed for use with factory swaged fittings, worm drive or Oetkier

clamps. The other popular hose type is Aeroquip "socketless", push-on", "pushfit", "push-lok" and other

clones. Fittings are simply pushed into the hose, with the hose reinforcing braid woven is such a way

that the grip, on the "fir tree" barb, increases as the force trying to push it out goes up- think Chinese

finger trap. Socketless type hose and fittings have been continually gaining popularity over the last few

years, especially with the introduction of high quality aluminum hose ends in a variety of angles, and

although temperature rated 300f , rare instances of "fitting blow out" under extreme temperatures have

been reported. Extra clamping should be considered where very high temperatures are involved. Hose

and fittings are made to similar specifications, and usually interchangeable between brands. Hose is

generally available in either black or light blue exterior covering

 

Cool, I can make it up myself and it is reasonably priced.

 

Next, I will put my schematic on this thread so you can all laugh at my lack of drawing skills!

 

L

 

nb. looking again at the pictures on Chris Kant's GT6 above, it is apparent that he has used this type of 'push-fit' hose, as I see no clamps, or swaged fittings in evidence.

 

I have asked Chris about the one-way valve and he says he will look it up for me, but thinks it may be an Earl's product?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lordleonusa]

OK, here is my schematic.

 

If anyone can see any errors with my plan, please let me know.

 

Thanks

 

Léon

[JohnD]

Leon,

It is critical to ensure that the hoses are connected correctly to the thermostat.

When I first had one, I did it wrong  - fine, until the oil heats up, whereupon the 'stat tries to open, in fact closes, and the strongest 'fir-tree' barb and jube clip are just blown off by the oil pressure.   It happened twice - and ever since I've gone around saying that thermostats are not needed for racing - oh, no, never use one, waste of time.

 

John

[lordleonusa]

Thanks John, I believe that my schematic diagram above is correct, but I will double, and triple check, according to the various diagrams that I have been able to find from Mocal etc.

 

I cannot believe how long this project has been running.

 

I got my car on the road in April 1997, and once run in it got the oil cooler system, sans thermostat.

 

Summer 1999, I took it all off because of a stupid road hump damaging the oil cooler radiator.

 

October 2004, I bought a replacement radiator and some swaged hoses from Think Automotive while in the UK.

 

Now, it's November 2008, and I am finally getting round to re-fitting the system!

 

Nothing like taking my time!

 

L

 

 

  

 

[JohnD]

I've no argument with your schematic, leon, but that's only a sketch of the 'stat, I presume.

The correct flow SHOULD be marked - mine wasn't.

 

Swaged hoses are the way to go, IMHO.

You have yours, but I bought mine from our local hydraulics engineering shop.

They made them up while I waited, having seen the necessary connections, and to the length I wanted.

Cheaper too!

 

John

[lordleonusa]

I would prefer swaged, but will go for the aeroquip socketless for practical & affordable purposes to begin with.

 

Once all is in place, and I have the measurements, I may later change them to braided swaged.

 

I fully understand your reasoning though.

 

I have a very good explanation of which way around I should attach the thermostat, so I am not in the least worried about that.

 

see on page 2 of:

 

http://64.202.180.37/files/thermos$.pdf?Submit1=Get+Pricing

 

On Chris Kant's website, he includes photos of the installation on his own GT6.

 

He has included a non-return valve of the 'flapper' type, nothing to do with young ladies from the 1920's...this is intended to prevent drain-back of oil from the oil cooler radiator when left standing.

 

He used Earl's Performance 251010ERL:

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EAR-251010ERL&N=700+115&autoview=sku

 

Costing gulp, $111.39 plus $11.75 'handling'  

("fuel check valve, red, aluminum, -10AN to -10AN Male")

 

(Surplus units were widely used in fuel systems for decades. However, the surplus synthetic rubber seals are not always compatible with current hydrocarbon fuels and/or additives. Earl's has redesigned the original surplus valves with modern elastomers, which are not affected by most fuels and lubricants).

 

-8AN is closer to 1/2"BSP, so this one is a bit big in diameter.

 

That is a lot of money, IMHO.

 

I have done some checking around and find:

 

that pegasusautoracing.com sell a check valve, 1/2" NPT Female ports (part # 3605-1/2NPT) for a much more reasonable $24.79 + shipping.

 

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3605

 

("this check valve is used to prevent back flow of oil from the Accusump - cannot be used if the Accusump is connected directly to the engine block with a single hose")

 

Summit also sell an almost identical version called the Moroso 23875 part # MOR-23875, "Fuel Check Valve, Natural, Brass, 1/2" NPT Female to 1/2" NPT Female, each costing $23.69 plus $11.75 'handling'

 

see here:

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR-23875&N=700+115&autoview=sku

 

Meanwhile, back at the BAT (British American Transfer) website, as U.S. distributors of Mocal products:

 

They offer Check Valve Female 1/2" NPT, part # C2CV (no price yet)

 

http://64.202.180.37/files/cvalve.pdf

 

"Simple poppet type check valve with 1/2" NPT Female thread. Configure for application with male/male unions"

 

or their other offering, (on the same page), is:

 

Check Valve 8-AN Male, part # 610-8, low restriction, flapper type check valves. Military specification-jet-engine (new) surplus.

 

Finally, I note also that pegasus sell their own flapper version, part # 3606-8 for $109.99 plus shipping.

 

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3606

 

and their take on it is: "These high quality check valves have a low tension spring to allow virtually unimpeded flow in one direction, yet the O-ring sealed internal flapper positively prevent flow in the opposite direction. They are used in fuel systems, oil scavenge lines, and other low pressure applications where a check valve is required. Aluminum body."

 

Question is, do we have any plumbing/valve experts on the forum?

 

Do I go poppet or flapper?

 

If so, then why is one potentially better than the other?

 

According to page 57 of the Mocal/Think Automotive .pdf catalogue:

 

Construction. anodised aluminium housing with either a disc valve

or a flap valve.

Application.

Disc valve has slight flow resistance but suitable for fuel

systems.

Flap valve has no detectable resistance to flow, more

suited to high flow oil systems, the latter are prohibitively expensive

but some times available on the surplus market at reasonable cost,

therefore supplies tend to be erratic and prices may vary

 

Sigh. looks like a flapper is better for oil systems, and is naturally more expensive.

(sod's law of spendy parts for automotive enthusiasts!)

 

In an ideal world, I would just do what Chris Kant' has already successfully done on his GT6, but that is a lot of money, potentially better spent somewhere else!

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Léon