Herald 13/60 Tuning Options

[rich.h44]

Hi guys, well we're do I start? I have so many questions....

I have a herald 13/60 it's on twin hs2 carbs with 2.9 ram pipes a 4 branch manifold with full exhaust system

I took the car to a guy called dave bogg I used him years ago to tune my minis, anyway during tuning we found the cars valve springs to be dead getting valve bounce at5k so he did what could with it! I came away with 83bhp, I found it it has the Toledo engine in I can't remember the engine code,

Now do I just replace the valve springs (with head still on?) and which valve springs,collets etc do I use?

Whip the head off and have it rebuilt with head work which I'm not keen on doin just yet

Leave it as it is and put a 1500 in? What's the pros and cons with this

 

Also when I had my mini I used 1.5 rocker tip rollers could I use these on my engine?

Is there any cams worth swapping about

And anymore tips on how to get more power (I'm looking a twin 1.5 inch carbs)

 

Another option iv looked at be need to do more research is our eniges seem very simaler to mini/metro engines now what if I got a metro turbo engine,took the gearbox off put my sump in its place and bolted my clutch/flywheel and gearbox to the side? Would this work?

As you can see I have loads of ideas bouncing about in my head and any input would very great full

 

Here is a picture of my little red shed some of you might know it

Kind regards

Richard

[Nick Jones]

Hi Richard,

 

Welcome!  I like Heralds..... especially tweaked ones.

 

Toledo engines were code DG and very similar to the DH used in the 1300 Dolomite and GK used in the last of the Herald 13/60s.  It's the big crank version of the 1300 engine and not the ideal one for tuning if you want to be able use big revs.  For that you need to start with a small crank bottom end prefix GE (Herald) FD, (mk3 Spit, usually well worn!), RD or RF (1300 FWD).  Heads can all be considered interchangeable among the 1300s though they come with various valve sizes and compression ratios.  The Heralds also sometimes come with strange push-on valve caps, without collets, and very soft valve springs.  Might be worth checking you don't have these before going any further as upgrading these would mean changing the valves as well.

 

1300 vs 1500.  Depends what you want to do with the car as they have very different character.  The 1300 is free revving and quite happy spinning at 4000+ rpm for long periods, so it's ok with standard Herald gearing (4.11:1 and no overdrive), though overdrive remains a big benefit.

 

The 1500 is much torquier, but is less keen to rev and will be bellowing for mercy at 4000 rpm.  If carefully built with the right parts they can actually survive high revs, but generally they don't last well if asked to rev for long periods.  That said, a 1500 Herald is a fine car, provided the gearing is also changed to suit the engine.  You need either a 3.89:1 diff plus overdrive or a 3.63 diff (overdrive then optional but still desirable).  This produces a good long distance car.

 

Likewise cam selection - depends what you want to with the car.  A common modification is to fit a cam ground to the Mk3 Spitfire profile which brightens up the mid-range and top end without costing too much at the bottom end.  There are various hotter cams available but these can make things a bit ragged low down and a pain to drive in traffic.

 

Although the general design looks a bit like the A series there are no common parts or interchangeability between the two.  The Triumph engine ought to be the better design in that it has an 8 port head, though this is somewhat offset by the shear amount of effort that has been put into developing the A series.  You couldn't use a Metro or Mini engine in RWD configuration as the crank won't take a "normal" flywheel.  You'd need a Midget or Maestro one.  Better to stick to the Triumph offering and turbo that.  Or if wanting to do an engine swap then consider the Ford Zetec SE 1.6 plus T9 gearbox or engine and box from an MX5.

 

From where you are now, I'd suggest finding out what the valve spring issue is and sorting that.  Some decent cylinder head work and a Mk3 Spit cam profile should take you to a real 80 - 85 bhp (I'm not believing the current figure I'm afraid).  That's probably as far as you should go without being sure that the bottom end is in good shape.  1.5" SUs are not going to gain you anything at that level of tune IMO.  With my hot 1300 (small crank bottom end, big-valve flowed head, Kent TH3 cam) I didn't find any benefit until 6000+ rpm.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[rich.h44]

Hiya Nick thanks for getting back to me, GK is the engine that's in at the moment and have be told it's not as fun as a GE but iv never come across any for sale so thought I'd see what I can do with this engine. Iv will try and grab a picture of the valve springs I have on currently, would I not just be able to change the valve springs with the head still on useing the method on putting rubber vac pipe in the bore to hold the valve in place while changing them?

 

I'm not sure what diff I have but I have got a j9 overdrive on there, in fact there is quite a few goodies on the car such as spax coil overs and adjustable dampers,spitfire rear leaf spring and anti roll bar.

 

Well that throws that idea with the a series out the window then hahaha.

 

The car was put on the rollers before he started doing anything to see were it was and 1st run was 71bhp so I'm not sure if or how far the rollers are out, dave did say to me he could properly coax an extra 10-15 bhp out of the 1.5 inch and tad more with a bit of head work to improve flow.

 

I'm a it of a tourqe freak and that's what I'm trying to set the engine up hense the 2.9 ram pipes over the normal stub stack people run.

 

Thanks for your in put iv been spending hours reading pinned posts but there's so much stuff to take in

[rich.h44]

Ok so iv managed to get in the unit, and here's the valve train

 

 

Any ideas what valves springs I need?

[GT6Steve]

Those valve spring caps look a bit dodgy to me.  Never seen that arrangement.

 

I'm in the US but I have tons of old valves, springs and such salvaged mostly from GT6's over the years.  Nick would know but if any of the takeout stuff I've saved can help let me know.  I very much hate it being thrown away....

[egret]

I think those are the standard herald 13/60 valve spring caps.  All advice I've read is to replace those with more conventional ones.

[Nick Jones]

Those are the standard Herald valve caps used 1200 and 13/60.  They have one advantage - easy to fit and remove.  The springs seem rather feeble though and I suspect valve bounce might occur rather early!

 

Fine on a stock Herald engine but for anything performance oriented I would replace the valves with ones that take conventional colletts along with caps to match and use springs as recommended (and preferably supplied) by the cam maker.

 

Nick