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ECU Master EMU Black


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Hi,
 Anybody know of a six running an EMU Black ECU?

I have the Emerald K3. It lacks full sequential fuel and ignition on a six. The K6 does this but it also lacks TPS/Map blending. I want MAP for ignition; this is also not possible with Emerald.
I have ordered a Black ECU.

Anybody know the brand of multipin connectors on the K3 ECU?

Cheers,

Iain.

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41 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Agreed. Especially if you have ITBs.

Hi,

 So sequential gives no improvement in idle or MPG quality at low RPM on ITB's & spark plugs will perform same as wasted spark is what you are saying?

Cheers,

iain.

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1 hour ago, Gt6s said:

YOU DO NOT NEED SEQUENTIAL INJECTION !

Hi Gt6s,

Could you please briefly explain why not?
I was planning on adding a Cam sensor for sparks & believed it would help with my MPG.

Thanks,

Iain.

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Could you remind us of your engine spec?

IIRC you have modified PI throttle bodies? These are a bit(!) big, which makes balance between the throttles absolutely critical. Also, 90% of road driving will use only the first few degrees of throttle operating range, which makes mapping challenging. Presumably you are using alpha-N (throttle pot as load sensing) control strategy?  Having ITB mode available (blended MAP and throttle position) does have the potential to help with this. 

Sequential is mainly for cleaning up emissions at low rpm, especially with wilder cam timing, but can also clean up low speed running manners if you have a wild cam and plenum inlet manifold.

Do you not have 3D mappable ignition at this point? That has great potential 

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46 minutes ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi Gt6s,

Could you please briefly explain why not?
I was planning on adding a Cam sensor for sparks & believed it would help with my MPG.

Thanks,

Iain.

Because your engine cannot tell the difference between batch fire and sequential. Aparently sequential has MININIMAL Mpg improvement Not worth the extra wiring complications. The same for ignition MINIMAL benefits. Disadvantage the wiring AGAIN. K.I.S.S

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24 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Could you remind us of your engine spec?

****Snip**********

Hi Nick,

 PI CP ITB's. Prestige linkage.
Alpha-N & wasted spark. (Ford V6 Coil pack), as do not have six ignition O/Ps.
Ignition is TPS controlled. Not MAP as K3 will not allow this when fuelling is TPS controlled.

Cheers,

Iain.

 

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31 minutes ago, Gt6s said:

Because your engine cannot tell the difference between batch fire and sequential. Aparently sequential has MININIMAL Mpg improvement Not worth the extra wiring complications. The same for ignition MINIMAL benefits. Disadvantage the wiring AGAIN. K.I.S.S

Hi,

 Minimal benefits @ £2 a Litre @ 20MPG is a gain.
Extra wiring?? Three extra for ignition & none for injectors unless they have been jumpered. Two wires on an injector pin? Would you??
2C+S cable for Cam sensor.
Hardly a rewire. A MINIMAL wiring change.
I agree wires & electrickity do scare some people.

Cheers,

Iain.

 

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It would be usual, even mandatory, to use the same load source for fuel and ignition on any ECU.

Problem with ITBs, including PI TBs (especially PI TBs, cause they are so big) is that you just don’t get a decent MAP signal. I’ve just tried this experiment with much smaller ITBs and the 90mBar MAP point varies from about 8 to 28% of full load dependent on rpm.

The hardware you already have is undoubtedly capable of way better than 20 mpg. It’s hiding in the mapping.  It will be fairly hard to map and I’m not sure what software tools are available for the K3.

For perspective, I have been getting reliably mid to upper 30s mpg from my Vitesse over 10s of thousands of miles using a £200 Megasquirt ECU with batch-fired injectors and wasted spark ignition. It only 2L but makes about 135 - 140 bhp. Similarly I was getting low to mid 30s from my PI saloon. That made 148bhp on the rolling road.

The biggest benefit of the Black ECU  will be the blended load feature. Just because it should make it easier to map.

Do you have a wideband O2 sensor installed and who will do your mapping?

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MAP sensor will not work with the oversize Triumph butterflies. I fitted a vacuum guage to my EFI 2600 car once. I tried to put her under serious load on Craigantlet hill ( Really steep and long ) running at low revs in OD top I gently pressed the throttle. Bugger did not create a vacuum Just accelerated as if the hill was not there. FUTILE EXERCISE !  Guage came out PDQ.

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12 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi,

 Minimal benefits @ £2 a Litre @ 20MPG is a gain.
Extra wiring?? Three extra for ignition & none for injectors unless they have been jumpered. Two wires on an injector pin? Would you??
2C+S cable for Cam sensor.
Hardly a rewire. A MINIMAL wiring change.
I agree wires & electrickity do scare some people.

Cheers,

Iain.

 

On a six, sequential injection requires SIX injector power feeds. Batch injection ONE !

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25 minutes ago, Gt6s said:

SORRY signal feeds not power.

Hi Gt6s,

 You were correct first time; it's power not signal.
But you cannot run six injectors off one output. Current draw would exceed maximum allowable. Did you mean six O/Ps firing at same time, if so its still 12 wires?

Cheers,

Iain.

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12 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

It would be usual, even mandatory, to use the same load source for fuel and ignition on any ECU.

Problem with ITBs, including PI TBs (especially PI TBs, cause they are so big) is that you just don’t get a decent MAP signal. I’ve just tried this experiment with much smaller ITBs and the 90mBar MAP point varies from about 8 to 28% of full load dependent on rpm.

The hardware you already have is undoubtedly capable of way better than 20 mpg. It’s hiding in the mapping.  It will be fairly hard to map and I’m not sure what software tools are available for the K3.

For perspective, I have been getting reliably mid to upper 30s mpg from my Vitesse over 10s of thousands of miles using a £200 Megasquirt ECU with batch-fired injectors and wasted spark ignition. It only 2L but makes about 135 - 140 bhp. Similarly I was getting low to mid 30s from my PI saloon. That made 148bhp on the rolling road.

The biggest benefit of the Black ECU  will be the blended load feature. Just because it should make it easier to map.

Do you have a wideband O2 sensor installed and who will do your mapping?

Hi Nick,

 Ability to have MAP for timing & TPS for fuel is the main reason I ordered the Black. Why do you say "It would be usual, even mandatory, to use the same load source for fuel and ignition on any ECU." ?
I use an AEM gauge with a 0-5V signal that is fed to the ECU. At the moment the Lambda has no authority on control. Just spent the last week getting the AFR around figures I like to see while driving. At one point I was running rather lean with no MPG gain. Back to around 15.5 on cruise & 14-14.7 @ idle.
 

I'm sure a good rolling road session would quickly pay for itself but I want MAP for ignition.

"...who will do your mapping?"; Is something I should have considered first before purchase. I will make enquires this week.
My first question: "Anybody know the brand of multipin connectors on the K3 ECU?" is so I can drive to a rolling road on the K3 & then swap in the Black for tuning with TPS & Batch firing add cam sensor & revisit for another session. Pretty sure I can switch select two different strategies with the black

Cheers,

Iain.

fueling.JPG

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5 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi Gt6s,

 You were correct first time; it's power not signal.
But you cannot run six injectors off one output. Current draw would exceed maximum allowable. Did you mean six O/Ps firing at same time, if so its still 12 wires?

Cheers,

Iain.

Mine runs power to the injectors constant then swtched to ground at the ECU.  Mine is two wires one power to the injectors one to the ECU for switching , wired as per the DTA wiring diagram. Believe me I wired it and she fired up first touch of the key. What does that say ?

 

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Dave Walker ? I have spoken to Dave Walker a couple of times when researching ECU's. He is not the font of knowledge he is made out to be. I very quickly realised that. Alan Warburton at DTA on the other hand DIFFERENT KETTLE OF FISH, He really knew his stuff, even caught me out when I tried to test him ( I know that you know that I know) The reason I bought DTA. My ignition map is roughly based on some of DTA's provided sample maps. (Granted no 2600 Triumph 6) Those samples ramp the ignition map sadvance up quite a bit more than that shown of Dave Walkers That is barely better than a dizzy. I quoted my conversations with Dave Walker to DTA's Alan Warburton and to be quite honest he was shocked.

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Thanks for posting the map Iain.

Two things jump out. My reading suggests than one of the key parts of creating a good map is picking the correct axes “scale” and to note that the grid lines don’t have to be at regular intervals, but can be positioned where the main action is.

For instance, on my old single throttle MAP based maps, I had nothing below 30mBar as it never went there and most of the load lines were bunched between 40 an 80 mBar.

On an alpha-N map, especially where the TBs are big, most of the action will take place near zero at the top of the table. You’d do much better having load lines every degree for the first 5 degrees then maybe every three degrees for the next 24 degrees then spread the remainder over what is left.  I’m amazed yours isn’t like this.

Second is how little advance there is at 0 degrees throttle up to 2k rpm. Ok, it rises to 15deg advance at 6deg throttle and will interpolate, but that’s still very low and during normal driving in town and traffic I doubt you often even get to 6 deg throttle. A big part of your thirst lies right there.  Wouldn’t be surprised if it was done on purpose to blunt throttle response and try damp the effect of the big throttles, but not the right way to do it in my view. Pretty sure Laurence will agree.

Common issue with RR operators is that they tune for max power /for the track/ for the drag strip and often don’t pay much attention to driveability and economy. Fair enough for a competition car (which maybe what they mostly see to be fair) but not good enough on a daily driver road car.

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi Nick,

 I had recalibrated the TPS Y scale to be Logarithmic so small throttle openings were taken care of. I also expanded the X Axis so that I had much more resolution at low RPM and only had 500 RPM steps around 5000+. The Dave walker RPM range "wasted" about 50% of the available RPM sites. Nothing much changes above 85% throttle anyhow as 48mm is a wee bit large as all agree.

Having the expensive 971-0002 TPS's becoming noisy every three years throws a spanner in the tuning, Looking at spending more money on a fit & forget Hall-effect type.
Mr Retro "Wank" spark plug leads had me chasing my tail as well.
I have loads of *.map files I have made. I thought it would be better to go back to the start with Dave's map- I have had to decrease the fuel across the full range via MBPS  to get the good looking AFR I have now.

I'm going to spend time populating my Ignition map with IanI's GT6 Ignition curve as attached tomorrow night over a few cans of beer.

Cheers,

Iain.

PS. I spend most of my cruising RPM @ 2600.
 

IanI_Ignition.JPG

Edited by spitfire6
PS
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