Whats happening to insurance premiums?

[JohnD]

My Transit race barge insurance needs to be renewing.    The renewal premium was 40% more than last year, so I went to the company that I have two other cars insured with for a quote, hoping for a multi-car discount.     Theirs was 80% more!    

Anyone else renewing come January, and found similar hikes?

John

PS Why do they all have 'specialist' branches or subsiduaries for vans?

[zetecspit]

Commercial vehicles are treated differently by the insurance companies. I guess they have somebody who asks teh questions that most "reps" won't know to ask?

My view is that insurance companies are charlatans. I have to get quotes every year. Renewal came through at £240 (somebody drove in the back of me, and their insurance has been evasive about settling, so added £40 to last years premium). Went via Quidco compare, £160, and £48 csashback comng my way. I think that is a result....

[Hamish]

Our latest insurances to come due are for the dogs ( medical) no changes and no claims

113% increase 

[Nick Jones]

51 minutes ago, zetecspit said:

My view is that insurance companies are charlatans

Mine too.

But also the people who compile the inflation figures. 5% claimed by being carefully selective. Real world figure has to be more like 15 - 20%.

Its not just UK, our German parent company imposed a 9.8% cost increase at the beginning of November, additional to their standard annual 3% in July, on top of which we’ve had to add 2% locally to ease our pain on import costs.  I’ve heard several stories of 8 -12% increases from Jan 1st for competitors / similar equipment.

Keep shopping around John, I reckon you’ll get back to where you started at least. Presumably it’s fairly limited mileage? Does it help if you call it a camper van? (It sort of is after all!)

[JohnD]

Their van branches don't ask, just the regno. And is that the right vehicle?  Perhaps the Caravan Club??

[mpbarrett]

Caravan club not the cheapest for campervan insurance worth shopping around.
One of the problem with  campervan insurance is that the value of the vans has gone up. We have 2011 Autosleeper van and it is worth more now than when we brought it 5 years ago! Its all supply and demand, everyone brought vans last year for UK based holidays so increased demand, the builders cant get the chassis from the manufactures so if you buy a new one there is 12 month delay. I heard Autosleeper had stopped production as they had run out of van chassis... Crazy times.

[JohnD]

Mine barely merits the name 'campervan'!   It's a Transit minibus with the seats taken out and replaced by a bunkbed with storage below.  It came with a domestic microwave, and a PortPottie, loose on the floor!   I've strapped those down now, and could run ithe microwave off a campsite mains linkup, but cookers, washing up - forget it!

It does have a 'workshop' in the back, with a bench that I've added a vice to, just in case.   Because I've never driven a vehicle before that had no rear view mirror, save for door mirrors, I also added a camera to the rear.    Works very well, just like having an inside rear mirror!

 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by JohnD

[MilesA]

Youngest daughter (26) is about to get her first car. Am anticipating equity drawdown to pay for her insurance!

Miles

[John I]

Just checked our van insurance which was renewed 6 weeks ago. Went up £21 over last year to £427. I didn’t think that was bad increase.

it an 05 plate Merc Vito and it certainly isn’t worth more than I paid for it 12 years ago. 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

According to Marin Lewis, he of Money Saving Expert, insurance renewals from 1st January were anticipated to jump because that was the date from which the 'loyalty penalty' was outlawed following the court case.

Much like after the court case that prevented insurers charging different premiums for male and female customers.

Fortunately the Scimitar insurance expired in November and actually went down very slightly. Which I never seen before.

 

[JohnD]

Finally got the van insured, for only 35% more than last year!

The insurer who covered me in 2021 refused to quote, as the van is "modified" (see above)!!    

And a specialist campervan broker first quoted £750!    Reduced to £540 on appeal!!   

As an aside, why are van converters so keen to get their vehicle reclassified by the DVLA?   There's even a special Gov.uk page about it: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motor-caravan/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motor-caravan

 

JOhn

[thebrookster]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

As an aside, why are van converters so keen to get their vehicle reclassified by the DVLA?   There's even a special Gov.uk page about it: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motor-caravan/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motor-caravan

Because a van is considered a commercial vehicle under UK law, thereby meaning you have to comply with the reduced speed limits. (Might not cover all vans, but certainly the bigger vans are).

By reclassifying it as a camper, you remove thus issue. 

We have the same issue with pickup trucks, technically my Ranger is also covered by the lower limits (hence why I happened to learn this little nugget of info). 

Admittedly very few people pay this any attention other than those who do the modifications! But that as far as I am aware is the main reasoning.

[JohnD]

Thank you, Phil!   My Transit goes very well at 70, so maybe I should keep an extra eye out for Plod.    It does sound as if it's revving it's nuts off at that speed, but willingly.   I've considered fitting a rev counter, some posh versions had one.  They are possible, I read, for diesels!

John

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, thebrookster said:

Because a van is considered a commercial vehicle under UK law, thereby meaning you have to comply with the reduced speed limits. (Might not cover all vans, but certainly the bigger vans are).

This is an irritating random piece of British official twattery. Almost identical vehicles can have different speed limits on dual carriageways and A roads (but not motorways) for imaginary reasons so obscure I’ve never found a rational explanation. Possibly punishment for having a slightly lower taxable class at some point.

A former service engineer colleague got pulled over for speeding on the Bodmin bypass. He was very surprised as he’d seen plod and was dead on 70. Unfortunately his new van, unknown to him, was limited to 60 in those conditions. He argued the toss with plod (he’s very bolshie!), asking how come he’d never been pulled in his old (and apparently identical) van. Plod claimed blind luck, but when told it was 150k miles of luck, he actually looked up the old reg and found it was true. He was unable to explain why…. Got nicked anyway.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

The random nature of all this escapes me too.

However, given that your average taxpayer is subsidising the fuel of said commercial vehicle drivers I have absolutely zero sympathy for any of them caught speeding. The more the merrier in my view.

And I don't understand why it has taken so long for mandatory speed limiters to come along for any 'commercial' vehicle. And sorry Phil but I include pickups in that category too.

Bah humbug 

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

However, given that your average taxpayer is subsidising the fuel of said commercial vehicle drivers

Eh?

[JohnD]

OOOOooooooOOO!   

Yes, about 50 is the most cost effective speed, and of course drag increases as the square of speed, so mounts up above that.   But, EE, are you one who never drives above that, sending those behind you into paroxysms of rage?

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Businesses don't pay VAT on fuel but the rest of us do so it's effectively a subsidy for white van man.

As for obeying speed limits, we drive faster we pay more for making that choice. 

As for getting caught that's the cost of the choice and of failing to know the rules. Works both ways.

At no point in any of this though have I said I never exceed the speed limit.

As Nadal said of the entitled brat Jokovic, decisions have consequences.

But that is rather besides the point as I don't get to chose whether or not the van driver uses extra subsidised fuel. 

 

[Nick Jones]

4 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Businesses don't pay VAT on fuel but the rest of us do so it's effectively a subsidy for white van man.

Ah, ok.  Good point.  So they should all be clobbered, not a (apparently) random selection.  If anyone does know the alleged rationale behind the different speed limits between mechanically identical vehicles - I'm all ears.

[thebrookster]

6 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

And I don't understand why it has taken so long for mandatory speed limiters to come along for any 'commercial' vehicle. And sorry Phil but I include pickups in that category too.

So you advocate speed limiters for all vehicles then? We all share the same roads, so by reducing the speed of one subsection of road users you effectively impact everyone. Look to the A82 and the A9 as prime examples of that.

Whether a vehicle is classed as commercial or private is down to how the manufacturer registered it during the design process. And sweet bugger all to do with it's usage. My truck, as an example, has in the last 7 years of my ownership never been used for business, in fact never even been used for commuting! It is solely personal use. I have paid the full VAT applicable to it, so for taxation it is classed as a private vehicle. I have never claimed or received any form of VAT relief on fuel. So I'm afraid I don't quite understand under what grounds you are suggesting my vehicle requires speed limiters fitted whereas yours doesn't? (I'm using myself as the example, however as John alludes to above this obviously affects a reasonable number of people, as there is an entire subindustry dedicated to getting vans reclassified!)

Aside from your argument against the "white van man" subsidy, for which I am not convinced speed limitations is the answer, I agree with Nick's views. The law is outdated and has little real justification any more. 

[Nick Jones]

Speed limiting particular classes of vehicle has consequences for those us who have share the roads with them.

Not so very long ago some genius though it was a good idea to limit HGVs to 40 mph on single carriageway roads.  My office is about 8 miles south of Yeovil just off the A37, a road with limited overtaking possibilities.  On leaving the office in the evening, the sight you didn’t want to see was (and is) an artic passing, with it’s inevitable tail.  A single artic, or even one with a handful of cars behind is not a problem as there’s an overtaking lane 1/2 a mile north. However, especially in the 40 mph days, the tails could be epic. I got in the habit of counting cars and the record stands at 83. That’s a long wait. Plus I then get to follow the whole train, at 40mph tops, to Yeovil, where the clot of traffic delivered messes up the flow through the various lights, and then, 90% probability I get to follow the same truck another 5 miles out west to the A303…..

This still happens, even now the 40 limit has been lifted, but the trains are much shorter and the travelling speeds more bearable.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Sorry gents you are conflating my point about subsidising speeding with the definition of speeding. They are not the same thing.

I also struggle to understand how speed limits are arrived at. I also use the A9 and other Scottish trunk roads on a regular basis and the various limits seem completely arbitrary and like you say can effectively reduce the speed to ridiculously low levels. As is the case with the A9 average speed cameras. Or when towing a car trailer with a 4L Scimitar on the motorway and legally not being allowed to pass the 'tw@t' driving at 50 in the middle lane.

However that was NOT my point. As for paying the legal rate for VAT and other taxes, yep so do Google, Amazon, Rees-Mogg, etc. But again not my point.

My points are;

a. commercial vehicles  pay lower fuel taxes than private individuals and therefore I am effectively subsidising any additional fuel usage they chose to incur by going faster. If they want to break the law fine by me, but I strenuously object to subsidising their fuel while they do it.

b. exceeding a speed limit is a personal choice (if you don't know you're doing it you probably aren't competent to be driving a vehicle) and in the extremely unlikely situation you get caught then then you should accept the consequences of that choice. Again if you think that is 'unfair' then maybe your moral compass needs adjustment. Just like it would be if caught overtaking in lane 3 while towing a trailer. Or going faster than 60.

I see speeding fines a bit like the National Lottery, a tax on the challenged for the benefit of society as a whole.

As for speed limiters. Yes. Most people driving cars probably should not be allowed to do so especially in built up areas as they clearly lack the necessary judgement. Come the day it will be a bit crap when, on the very rare occasions, you have a clear bit of road and could but for the limiter drive as fast as you want in your new EV.

But that is why we drive Triumphs.

And as yet no-one has managed to mandate against acceleration

[mark spit]

17 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Ah, ok.  Good point.  So they should all be clobbered, not a (apparently) random selection.  If anyone does know the alleged rationale behind the different speed limits between mechanically identical vehicles - I'm all ears.

Not 100% sure but I think anything with a payload over a tonne would be a commercial and subject to the lower limits, however, there are ways around it, I have a friend with a Vito van, but specified it with windows in the sliding doors and the extra row of seats which are fully removable, as such it's classed and registered as a car not a van so isn't subject to lower limits,

Mark

[JohnD]

Mine is licensed as  "Light Goods Vehicle", and the Gov.uk site https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits says:

Goods vehicles (not more than 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)	30 (48)	50 (80)	60 (96)	70 (112) 60 (96) if articulated or towing a trailer

 

So, b*gg*r all to argue about really! A campervan can do 70 on a dual carriage way.  Big deal, especially as with a trailer I'm limited to 60 anywhere.  The big wagons, or motorhomes (>7.5tonnes) are also limited to 60 on d.cs.

 

[thebrookster]

2 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

a. commercial vehicles  pay lower fuel taxes than private individuals and therefore I am effectively subsidising any additional fuel usage they chose to incur by going faster. If they want to break the law fine by me, but I strenuously object to subsidising their fuel while they do it.

Which is my point exactly! A commercial vehicle is defined upon type approval by the government and the manufacturer. Just because a vehicle is defined as a commerical vehicle does not automatically mean it gets the VAT relief, to qualify for that it must be used for business use, and you may only claim for business use.

So to state you are subsidising all commercial vehicles is wrong, because you do not subsidise either mine or John's commercial vehicles.

50 minutes ago, JohnD said:

So, b*gg*r all to argue about really! A campervan can do 70 on a dual carriage way.  Big deal, especially as with a trailer I'm limited to 60 anywhere

You are kind of the exception to the rule John, as the trailer is defining your speed limits. Just remember if you drive the van without the trailer only the motorway limit changes.

My objection is that I don't understand why my truck should be subjected to lower speed limits than those of vehicles with similar specifications -  Landrovers, Audi Q's, BMW X's etc. All of similar power/weight/safety features. All of which would struggle to perform the tasks I need a vehicle to do (well, the land rovers might be able to cope if I could accept their unreliability!) That is where the inequality is.