1978 Spitfire 1500 - restoring a rust free car...

[Nick Jones]

Your post supports my previously stated belief that I’d rather work on a really rusty car, that has not been previously messed with, than one subjected to a restoration by persons unknown.  Another benefit of a really rusty car is it’s easier to manipulate the “bones” back into place.

Certainly you are correct that these cars need to be built around the doors.  Thing is…. What doors?

Sometimes the holy grail “NOS” items turn out to have reasons why they remain unfitted to a car 40+ years after production ended. IMO you might want to try a different door and see if that changes anything? Did the original doors fit better? Do they still?

Beyond that, the final pic makes me want to put more packers under the rearmost body mounts to raise the tail and angle the b-pillar forward at the top. Whether this can have any effect with any of the sill structure present, I’m not sure. How well does the hardtop fit? Bearing in mind that the top of the screen pillars may have been pulled down and back by people swinging on them over the years…..

It’s all fixable….. you have the tools and the skills…. 

[RichardB]

Thanks Nick, your last comment cheered me up a bit. I agree regarding NOS panels, I've seen some where I think they were factory surplus as they had defects. This door is spot on though, it follows the same profile as my other ones and is dead straight.

The windscreen pillar may be a clue. I had to push it forward quite a lot to get the hardtop spacer tubes on. I am very keen that this restoration makes it easier for me to fit the hardtop as used to have to jack the car very brutally in the centre to get it on. Having said that, maybe using it is a jig is restricting b post movement and I could try loosening the bolts at the back and side to allow the front to come back a bit.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Richard. Accentuate the positive! Good progress at the back there.

Some thoughts on the bulkhead area.

1. Don't get too hung up on the holes for the hinges. Triumph put a lot of adjustment in for a reason!

2. From my experience the bulkhead area seems to 'drop' vertically and rotate back. Using just the hardtop to get things aligned isn't enough you also need to lift the dash/A posts. So if these are till attached to the floor then the floor will start to bend.

Ultimately it's probably going to have to be 'good enough' with the panels and then make up the gaps. The Heritage rear wings on my Mk1 needed quite a bit of work to get them to fit the original inner panel, deck and B panel and even then I needed a bit of filler at the top edge.

Just one stupid question. Are all the body/chassis spacers fitted and are they the right thickness?

Edit

Mark just made an excellent reply on his Spitfire thread

 

Edited January 15 by Escadrille Ecosse

[RichardB]

Thanks Colin

I am thinking the same regarding the hinges, although I guess as many owners have found after a restoration, they don't give you that much play in the grand scheme of things. I tried everything within their range of movement yesterday which is partly why I spent so many hours on it, it's very tiring doing it on a door with side impact bars...

The chassis is spaced properly using solid spacers and was straight as far as I could see before putting the body on. There's clearly a complicated relationship between body shell and chassis, further complicated by the floor being in place and bending. I'm not sure how concerned I should be about preserving the floor's straightness until things are in place, because if moving the bulkhead bends the floor, then logically straightening the floor again will revert the work done on the bulkhead. That's what seemed to be happening at least yesterday. I couldn't manage to move the bulkhead independently from the floor, no matter where the pressure was applied from in whatever plane.

Following Nick's comment I've been thinking more about the hard top / windscreen frame relationship and think there's maybe a benefit in loosening all that off. In the How to Restore Classic Car Bodywork book I've been using there's some really good diagrams showing how the windscreen frame is involved when stretching bodywork on cars with a fixed roof, which is still probably instructive with my scenario.

[JMH]

 

As others have probably already mentioned: Remember to install the H-support (and a bit of carpet underneath!)

And yes: I prefer to work on a rusted out shell, that has not been 'done' by some PO. 

Working on my 2000 mk 1 Estate now, and have found panels from about 4 or 5 other cars welded in - not a pretty sight - and no NOS panels by hand (except a sill strengthener and outer sill, donated AFTER I had bought and fitted a new outer sill from Lloyd/SouthwestTriumph). Copy was a good panel though.

[RichardB]

I think a lot of my disappointment yesterday was just the realisation that doing everything 'right' like having the H frame + carpet, hardtop as a jig, correct panels, preserving original metal where I could... doesn't really get me as far as I thought with this car. I may be facing an impasse where I either try to reset previous changes by cutting out even more metal, or risk distorting the car further by trying to move it more than it can.

The good thing is from what I can see, these panels should fit pretty well once the bulkhead is in the right place. I have heard that even OEM sills need cutting to fit under the door, so far it doesn't appear that will be necessary but time will tell.

 

[Mark]

HI Richard

Sorry posted my 1st reply on my own thread? Thanks for the link Colin. Probably looking at it to remind myself what I've done! seem to be doing that a lot lately, just as well I have Sideways to refer back to.

Couple of photos of the door gap closing tool I made up. One end hooks up behind the A post with a small pinch clamp to grip onto the flange to stop the angle iron slipping off. The other end bolts to the soft top frame mounting. Plenty of slack in the big hole so it can find its position when winding the nut in. Could have just tack weld in place, but I will be using it again, and already got enough grinding off to do.

[RichardB]

That is so elegantly simple, thanks Mark. A couple of photos makes it so clear, no dimensions or plans needed. I already have most of the bits to make some, I'd simply need a bit of thick steel plate for the flanges.

Edited January 15 by RichardB

[JMH]

20 hours ago, RichardB said:

The good thing is from what I can see, these panels should fit pretty well once the bulkhead is in the right place. I have heard that even OEM sills need cutting to fit under the door, so far it doesn't appear that will be necessary but time will tell.

Never had the need for cutting even Heritage Sills, its normally due to trying to get them lined up with the underside of the floor panel (and that is a mistake!). 

Another tip: Do put the bonnet on: You can get perfect panel gaps around doors - but a huge or narrow gap at the front, where the bonnet meets the front scuttle panel. 

Its time consuming, but you will get there :-) 

[RichardB]

Today was a much better day. I snuck over to work on the car for about an hour and managed to achieve a few things.

Firstly I loosened the hard top and body to chassis bolts just enough that the panels could slide a bit. I think this is the way to, and shifting the hard top back made the windscreen frame sit a bit better aesthetically underneath it.

Secondly, you'll laugh at this but a lot of time wasted on Sunday was due to a really stupid mistake. I realised the upper hinge was being blocked by the tab that holds the captive hinge plate in place. Once I'd bent that better, I had twice the range of movement in the door! I knew it didn't seem right the other day and should have checked this, no wonder the door felt so heavy and hard to adjust.

I have started using a 1/2" socket with hex adaptor in the cordless drill to fit the door bolts. Makes taking the door off and putting it on again so much faster. Why didn't I do this before.

I had a go at pushing the A post right at the front, under where the lower and upper A post panels meet. This didn't really seem to help. Apart from jacking the whole car up, with nothing to push against, there was a bit of a change in the door gap but it didn't really work well.

Very positive overall though. I can play with the gap much more and get it closer, even if it is still a bit V shaped and showing the bulkhead is in the wrong place.

I'm going to finish welding the heelboard patch and floor lip extensions and then make some Mark inspired door gap adjusters. Then I can faff some more. I'll need to be careful as I can see I've popped the tack welds at the top of the A post as you warned about Nick.

Edited January 16 by RichardB

[Nick Jones]

Don’t wear the threads in the door plates out….. guess how I know about that  

[RichardB]

Slow progress but I've nearly finished extending the lip on the floor pan. I also made a bit of a breakthrough in the plan.

I've tried a few things here and there to get more movement. Loosened the hardtop bolts, some chassis bolts etc. Still couldn't get the a post to lift without lifting the entire car. I was going to put the engine and gearbox in the tub for ballast but then I had another idea.

When I took the car off the road, I noticed the front bulkhead panels had bad cracks where the gearbox cover bolts onto them. Despite the strengthening plate added at the factory. At the time I assumed this was from the torque from the engine or something, but now I'm starting to think its from movement in the body, perhaps adding the hardtop and jacking the car up each autumn to fit it contributed.

Today I put the porta ram on the chassis under this area and pushed the bulkhead up, as I had done when repairing the cracks to ensure alignment was correct. I was able to lift the bulkhead without distorting it, at a much more even angle than jacking the a post at the back seam.

I haven't checked with a door yet but this is promising. Once the new door gap adjusters are made up I'll give it another go and report back.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

1 hour ago, RichardB said:

Today I put the porta ram on the chassis under this area and pushed the bulkhead up, as I had done when repairing the cracks to ensure alignment was correct. I was able to lift the bulkhead without distorting it, at a much more even angle than jacking the a post at the back seam.

That's interesting... and encouraging