reality of leaving the EU..

[Nick Jones]

42 minutes ago, Scooter said:

The EU commission has been aware of the huge and increasing level of VAT and Tax evasion in online sales across Europe running into $Billions. Lots of firms have been using Chinese drop shippers to fulfil orders and pocketing the VAT, a very nice little earner.

Yes, maybe.  But for the VAST majority of trade, this was already in place and functioning.  And has now been broken. 

But it was more than this tax evasion, it was that the EU ultimately wanted more oversight into the tax affairs of the super-rich and their companies.  This was (in my view) the major driver behind the forces that wanted Brexit and continued in the resistance any deal that didn't take this off the table.  They wanted to "take back control" so they could continue to hide their activities and hang on to money that isn't really theirs.

I have no problem with tax scrutiny at all levels.  None of us like paying tax, but we (nearly) all like to have a high-functioning society with decent public services, healthcare that doesn't bankrupt us, roads without craters and so on.  And those things require taxes.  

If everyone pays their fair share, the individual burdens will be less.  My heart does not bleed for the poor billionaire hedge fund manager having to pay a 7 figure tax bill (as if!).  He can afford it.  LIkewise my heart does not bleed for the oligarch needing to launder his stolen petrodollars or arms roubles (and avoid paying tax on too!).  Likewise the international corporations, especially the tech giants, who avoid paying taxes (potentially very big sums) in the countries where their profits are generated, or indeed their fair share in any country.  That is partly how these people become unreasonably rich - by not paying back their share to the societies where they do business.

[Scooter]

And forget any dreams of an independent Scotland joining the EU.

Spain has made it very clear it will veto any attempt by Scotland to join.

Catalunya, the Basques and all that.

[PaulAA]

10 hours ago, Scooter said:

Contrary to the hysteria of the EUrophiles, we left a dysfunctional political organisation, the EU,  we did not leave Europe, a geographic entity.

The much vaunted ‘biggest trading block’ represents just 15% of global trade, by 2030, it will be down to 10%. When we joined the EEC in 1973, it was 32%.

We were shackled to a dying corpse in long term decline.

In spite of Covid 19, the UK has just moved up to being the worlds 5th biggest economy - and will have caught up with Germany in a generation, making us the biggest economy and the most populous country in Europe.

Outside the EU, we can go after the 85% of global trade denied us by the EU’s protectionist tarrifs and quotas.

 

Shouldn't you be off playing with conspiracy theories, instead of trotting out BoJo's guff here?

Plausible sources for any of your amusing claims of the UK's supremacy..?

[Escadrille Ecosse]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

But it was more than this tax evasion, it was that the EU ultimately wanted more oversight into the tax affairs of the super-rich and their companies.  This was (in my view) the major driver behind the forces that wanted Brexit and continued in the resistance any deal that didn't take this off the table.  They wanted to "take back control" so they could continue to hide their activities and hang on to money that isn't really theirs.

This is unfortunately far too likely to have been the case.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

@Scooterapologies but I don't think I made my point about Indyref, Schengen, etc as clearly as I thought I had.

I agree with you that Spain is unlikely to accede to an EU membership of an independent Scotland in the short term at least but I do suspect that the with the UK now out of the EU that resistance will tend to diminish over time.

And in case my view on Scottish independence was a unclear I am most definitely in the remain camp. But by the same token I am not blind to the way things are shifting up this neck of the woods.

However my point which Mr Heseltine put so much more succinctly than I could was not that an independent Scotland join the EU before the UK rejoined. No. It is simply that Scotland would vote to leave the UK thereby destroying the UK before the thieving b######ds pulling the strings in Westminster at the moment either get pushed out or just do the decent thing and die and the UK can rejoin the EU and thereby remove one - or is that two - of the biggest drivers for Scottish independence (whatever that means).

Regards Schengen and the EU, they are not quite the same thing. So Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU but are in part of the Schengen Border Area.

The UK was never and still is not part of the Schengen Area.

Gibraltar joining Schengen is significant because it is a British Overseas Territory with a particularly special relationship to the UK and to Spain that was specifically excluded from the EU zone and as with all BOTs from Schengen.

It is still not part of the EU but it now is in Schengen.

So if this can happen there then it could also happen to NI. And although that would almost certainly require the Republic to leave the Common Travel Area with the UK they might consider it a bargain worth making as it would allow the Irish to join Schengen also. Thereby strengthening the single island approach. This would be made even stronger if Scotland were to become independent due to the far stronger emotional links between NI and Scotland than with England/Wales.

And Shetland wanting to separate from a Scotland that votes for independence is no fantasy as that is an issue that has been bubbling for years even though the SNP say they would refuse any referendum to do so.

We live in interesting times.

[2.5piman]

hello all,

I'm not sure that it is appreciated that we do not leave the E.U. in a couple of days i.e., yesterday we're in and today we are out and all things change. It will take very many years to disentangle from the E.U. and find our best way forward.

What happens in the future is up to the U.K. and no one else, we sink or swim depending on our national policies.  Although a conservative by  choice, I don't have a lot of confidence with the current ministers we have.

It is far to soon to complain that, now we have left, things are not working. It will be a long haul but we should have the potential to prosper, certainly more than being shackled to the inward thinking E.U.

 

Alec.

 

 

 

 

[Nick Jones]

40 minutes ago, 2.5piman said:

It is far to soon to complain that, now we have left, things are not working. It will be a long haul but we should have the potential to prosper, certainly more than being shackled to the inward thinking E.U.

Given what we have been "sold" - yes it's fair to complain I'd say.

As for the EU being too inward thinking, I believe that all this has been about the EU being too outward thinking and wanting to shine light in places that some would prefer to remain dark.  (indeed, need to remain dark to remain rich/at liberty) EU is one of the few government -ale organisations that seeks (some of the time at least) to put individuals rights and freedoms before those of big business.  Not always done in the best of ways maybe (GDPR?!) but a stark contrast to the slave-owner mentality from across the water and certain points closer to home......

[PaulAA]

3 hours ago, 2.5piman said:

hello all,

I'm not sure that it is appreciated that we do not leave the E.U. in a couple of days i.e., yesterday we're in and today we are out and all things change. It will take very many years to disentangle from the E.U. and find our best way forward.

What happens in the future is up to the U.K. and no one else, we sink or swim depending on our national policies.  Although a conservative by  choice, I don't have a lot of confidence with the current ministers we have.

It is far to soon to complain that, now we have left, things are not working. It will be a long haul but we should have the potential to prosper, certainly more than being shackled to the inward thinking E.U.

 

Alec.

 

 

 

 

Alec

I don't think there's any great mystery about the tail-off period needed for the disentanglement with EU legislation, but I do think there is every reason to complain about the situation the country is in.

It is four-and-a-half years since the referendum and it would not be unreasonable to assume that, since the UK has had the same Govt throughout the whole process, from initiation of the idea to today, the country could reasonably have expected that both the country the Govt itself would be prepared for the consequences.  This clearly is not the case.  Despite the the smug claims from the sunny uplands by people like 'Scooter' above, there is little evidence of the promises of wonderment and riches being delivered.

And Covid cannot be blamed.  That same Govt commissioned and ignored modelling to measure the impact of a long-predicted pandemic not even a year before C19 reached the UK.

Paul

[Scooter]

DPD not delivering because of ‘Brexit’?

The French company DPD? The same DPD that is owned by La Poste, the French postal service that is 73% owned by the French Government, who would be obliged to do what the French President tells them to do? Like manufacture a ‘Brexit’ situation that could be spun in the news?

Shirley not!

 

[Scooter]

Grrrrr! Brexit?
 

Except from the Irish Times - very telling
 

"Blame

Who is to blame is another issue. The message from some State officials can be summarised simply as: we told you so. Revenue said on Thursday night that they have been warning for at least two years that vast changes were coming and traders needed to get Brexit ready, and the difficulties that industry has faced this week was “the outworking of that warning”."

And....

"The Revenue said on Friday that its systems were “operating fully and correctly” and that “without exception” every system-related query that it has investigated “was a user error rather than a system error.”
Revenue said that traders were finding it difficult to compile or complete the required customs declarations “because, in some instances at least, the Brexit preparation messages reiterated by Revenue over at least the last two years, unfortunately for the businesses concerned, went unheeded.”"

[Scooter]

grrrr! Brexit?

Who’d have thought it! Business finds a way of working more efficiently!

en avant mes amies!

“England is an important economic partner for businesses in the department. It’s a market that matters to the people here. Our business partners want to continue working with us. In 2020, we continued to work with our English clients without difficulty. Brexit now requires us to review our logistical conditions to absorb the cost differential for our customers, ”says Jerôme Levassoire, the manager. He therefore had to adapt to compensate for transit and customs costs. “We can deliver small orders anywhere in Europe. Now that the UK is no longer a part of it, our UK customers are being asked to place one big order per month rather than small orders every week. "
He is not worried about the future of his relations with his customers from across the Channel: "Our business partners want to continue working with us".

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Yep. Exactly @Scooternail on the head pretty much with those.

As long as everyone in the UK and around world, especially those French, just do their bit and put in a that extra effort to help us out we can all muddle through with Brexit just fine and help make the UK better than them.

 

 

[zetecspit]

To be fair, I expect most issues will iron out over the next few months. Whenever a change takes place, companies squeal "we need more time" despite having been give plenty of notice. Just as the "deal" didn't happen in advance. Everybody leaves stuff to the last minute and is then surprised the transition is chaotic. 

Besides, businesses always find a way. It's what they do. 

So we need to see what it all looks like in 6 months time. I am hoping things will look similar to what they have done for much of my life. I will be amazed if the UK does benefit from leaving. The exception being straddled with the European debt/problems related to Covid. We may have sidestepped that one. Again, time will tell. ( I also read that Germany is regretting being part of the european vaccination procurement programme.  https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-buys-extra-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-from-eu-countries/ )

[thebrookster]

And all of that is fine for the larger businesses, but doesn't help the myriad of small businesses who don't sell in larger quantities, in particular those who need a larger market area to remain viable. They are simply left with either trying to trade with increased pricing, or close up.

As Nick has pointed out, the only people likely to benefit are those with money. For the rest of us, we simply have to endure higher prices and reduced availability of more niche products.

[PaulAA]

3 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Yep. Exactly @Scooternail on the head pretty much with those.

As long as everyone in the UK and around world, especially those French, just do their bit and put in a that extra effort to help us out we can all muddle through with Brexit just fine and help make the UK better than them.

 

 

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, zetecspit said:

To be fair, I expect most issues will iron out over the next few months. Whenever a change takes place, companies squeal "we need more time" despite having been give plenty of notice. Just as the "deal" didn't happen in advance. Everybody leaves stuff to the last minute and is then surprised the transition is chaotic. 

Why be fair?  What is fair about everything being up in the air until hours before the transition (after more than 4 years).  How can you properly prepare for everything when the "big dogs" (or should that be big dicks?) don't even know what the rules are now?  Prepare using your crystal ball for advice?  F-all on the government websites beforehand and not much now.....

Lets not forget that this is all regressive and brings no obvious gains in exchange and is therefore pain disruption and extra cost for NOTHING.

14 hours ago, Scooter said:

Who’d have thought it! Business finds a way of working more efficiently!

So, exactly how is coming up with work-arounds to negotiate obstacles thrown up by breaking a system that actually functioned pretty well for decades, "working more efficiently"?  

(still waiting for your list of "benefits" brexiters?  Struggling a bit?)

[zetecspit]

Nick, I was thinking from the position we were in. We were ending the transition period. There is no point in hoping it wouldn't happen. 

And neither side wanted to be seen to give in. So both sides responsible for the last minute nature of the agreement (yes, you can go on about there would be no need if we weren't leaving, but we are where we are, or were)

And te "to be fair " bit is pointing out that nobody, big or small, prepares for anything when they should, so why did anybody think this would be different. If the agreement had been in place a year ago, I would expect there to be exactly the same issues as we are having now.

As to small companies having problems, I really can't see it. They usually sell worldwide. And by their nature are used to being small and having to be flexible. For goodness sake, I was involved in selling some stuff to a chap in Norway, even I managed the customs forms on that. Took me a while as I had to find out what category a used gearbox was, and that was not clear at all. But I managed. If I had to do go through the process again, it would take minutes. No, the vast majority will be fine and once the kinks are ironed out. 

[Scooter]

Grrrrrr! Brexit!

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/nissan-“satisfied”-brexit-deal-outcome-says-uk-boss

[Nick Jones]

Let’s see how long they stay in the UK then.....

Meanwhile, another brexit dividend

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/11/dutch-officials-seize-ham-sandwiches-from-british-drivers

Best eat your sarnies on the ferry!

Tell me again, where is the list of wins?

 

[PaulAA]

1 hour ago, Scooter said:

Grrrrrr! Brexit!

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/nissan-“satisfied”-brexit-deal-outcome-says-uk-boss

Did you read the article, or just cherrypick the headline?  Let's see, shall we?

Does Nissan's MD say that he is satisfied that the deal is a better option than staying in the EU?  Nope.

Does Nissan's MD indicate that this will enable them to at least sustain current levels of production?  Nope.

Does Nissan's MD say that the deal is better than no deal?  Yup.

Does Nissan's MD that they will have to make radical cost cutting in their UK operation?  Yup.

Remind me - where's the Brexit win in this?  Oh yes, in the headline.

[JohnD]

I refer Honourable Members to this thread:  

 

 

[Nick Jones]

Another Brexit “dividend”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/musicians-hit-out-after-report-uk-rejected-visa-free-eu-travel

 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

26 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

Another Brexit “dividend”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/musicians-hit-out-after-report-uk-rejected-visa-free-eu-travel

Don't want these foreign musicians coming in and stealing our ears....

[RedRooster]

So far,

1 x bank account closed

1 x credit card closed

1 x building society account closed

And my work indemnity insurance cancelled.

RR

 

 

[RedRooster]

And we can't get horse food from Germany either?