Chassis/Bodyshell Dolly

[RichardB]

I've seen plenty of excellent DIY rotisserie designs online for working on a braced Spitfire bodyshell, but before I get to that stage I will be replacing quite a few panels including the inner/outer sills.

Ideally I would be able to move it around the garage, chassis+body+hardtop+bonnet bolted together, as space is at a premium.

This kind of thing looks like it could be ideal - but has anyone got photos of one on a Spitfire/GT6, or even better have any plans?

 

P.S. ideally I would re-assemble the suspension and leave it on wheels to best simulate loads on the chassis and thus panel fit once it's all together, but that seems like a bit of a pain if I'm trying to weld as I don't want tyres nearby when I'm welding. So a dolly seems to be the next best thing...?

[RichardB]

Ha! Managed to find this in an unrelated search. Apparently the last bodyshell made at Bordesley Green in 1979:

http://www.motorgraphs.com/content/thumbnails/01565/156427-zoom.jpg

[ed_h]

You could consider combining the dolly and rotisserie functions.  This rotisserie used a "faux frame" that supports the body at its mounting points, and is easy to roll around.  It didn't accommodate the bonnet, but some mods could fix that.

Ed

[Escadrille Ecosse]

I built this from a sheet of 8'x4' 10mm ply may years ago to support the body without chassis. No plans I'm afraid but pretty simple. Was open underneath and the cross sections simply slotted into each other. Exceptionally stiff and a quite light

[Nick Jones]

Seeing as you seem to be leaving the car near complete why not leave the wheels on and get a set of these

Like Eds wooden solution though, often overlooked as an engineering material.  Anyone remember the Africar?

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Wheel dollies. Brilliant things.

Africar.... I had completely forgotten about that.

These were wood and pretty decent

 

[ed_h]

Sorry, forgot to add the pic to my earlier post.

 

[RichardB]

Thanks all for the excellent replies! Some great food for thought.

Perhaps Triumph missed a marketing opportunity for a wooden bodied car. Triumph Mosquito anyone?

Ed, do you know what thickness of steel that is? Looks very simple to construct and I understand what you mean now.

Nick - its only a slight faff to put wheels back on but the main reason for a dolly is I can gain lots of space side to side by moving the car inside the double garage to work. Just need to drive the other car out first. Wheels would only gain me back and forth movement, needing the steering rack to do anything else and a lot of pushing up hill out of the garage and back in again.

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, RichardBaines said:

Wheels would only gain me back and forth movement, needing the steering rack to do anything else and a lot of pushing up hill out of the garage and back in again.

Hence the wheel dolly suggestion which gives sideways & diagonal motion without building a frame......

[RichardB]

Doh! Of course. Sorry Nick, brain doesn't function particularly well at 8am...

[Escadrille Ecosse]

All been there. Me more than most!

Been reading your Spitfire site Richard. Lots of good stuff there.

Interested in the EFi particularly for when I get to that stage

Colin

[ed_h]

7 hours ago, RichardBaines said:

Ed, do you know what thickness of steel that is?

Richard--

The channel is 3" x 1.5".  Here is a pic of the cross section. The thin web is about 1/8 inch thick. 

 

[ed_h]

When garage space is at a premium:

[img]http://bullfire.net/TR6/TR6-48/SDC12862a.JPG[/img]

[ed_h]

Sorry, I guess html tags don't work here.

[Nick Jones]

7 hours ago, RichardBaines said:

brain doesn't function particularly well at 8am...

Not just me then.....

[RichardB]

Thanks Ed, I really like the rotisserie. It's a very simple and strong design. I think I might be able to make something similar by modifying engine stands...

I've been mulling over your suggestion Nick and I'm really leaning towards that for simplicity until I the welding is done and I need a rotisserie for other bodyshell work. It's hard to beat it for price, roughly £114 for two pairs from a leading supplier where as I'd be paying around £60 just for decent castors alone when making a framed dolly, and it's less versatile.

The tyre dollies on the other hand will have plenty of uses in the future for our various cars, not just for this resto.

One question on welding though - when I have to take wheels off to weld, is it advisable to put the whole chassis on axle stands each time, rather than just a corner or side? Reason being how much I've seen the door gaps change on Spitfires and TR6s when being jacked up...

[RichardB]

p.s. I see that TR6 has cojones, brazenly parking in that spot reserved for MGs...

[Nick Jones]

All structural welding is best done with the cars weight taken in a way that is as close as possible to normal conditions. On its wheels. Another approach is to firmly brace door gaps and screen surround (fit hard top if you have one) while the car is in its running position which will make matters less critical.

If still considering a frame then the pick up points should be somewhere like the rear damper mounts and front turret mounts to keep the load paths similar.  To be fair, probably less critical on a Spit than Herald/Vit, they are really floppy.... especially convertibles.

[RichardB]

Its just a shame wheels will have to come off to weld, as that lessens the lifelike nature of it I guess.

Definitely fitting the hard top whilst its being done, and I have some door gap adjusters. Incidentally the hard top was the first thing that gave away the serious panel fit issues back when I bought the car. I had to jack it up to get the hard top on, and even then I couldn't get the top hat spacers in the windscreen frame. It'll be wonderful being able to just plonk it straight on when this is all finished.

I'm also intending to put the H frame in with a slip of carpet under the feet, and have got some USA doors with side impact bars too with original skins. My UK doors haven't been reskinned either, but I figure the safety benefit is worth it and they should hopefully also be less twisted than the UK doors, which have seen years of being shut against the bodywork due to the bad gaps.

[Nick Jones]

Well, you are touching on another angle here, which is the possible need to leave yourself scope to correct issues from damage, previous dubious repairs etc.

Our starting point was so shot, we bolted the tub (or what was left of it) onto the chassis and then “massaged” things to fit and splinted them in place.  This is probably actually easier to deal with than a strong, but misshapen starting point......

 

[RichardB]

Yeh completely. This is a photo of the actual car:

That's a pattern sill with quite a thick amount of filler just to get it to the same plane as the rear wing.

On the passenger side, the only datum point I have is the door itself to work around really as the inner/outer sills are pattern, bonnet is a heritage one and the rear wing has been replaced too (possibly heritage). Fortunately on the driver's side, there's an original rear wing which gives an extra point of reference, and that side hasn't sagged quite as much. But the whole bulkhead appears to have drooped considerably when the body was off the chassis.

To help a little bit, I've been hoovering up OE British Leyland panels pressed in the 70s/80s. So far I've managed to collect inner and outer sills for both sides, a sill front cover panel for the driver's side, a bonnet wing stiffener (helpful as the heritage bonnet wings curve in too much) and an original passenger rear wing. So at least that gives me a fighting chance, and it's interesting to see that even the inner sills are quite different from what's available today (the hole for running wires through is in the right place! ). 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Looks smart.

Nicks point about doing some remedial adjustment is valid. My old MkIV came with replacement sills when I got it (1983) and required doing again properly to get the door to work and the hardtop to fit.

BTW simply fitting the hardtop on its own isn't enough to get the gaps right. You will need jack it apart between the A and B pillars and it is quite likely that unless the car was very well braced the A pillars will have dropped too as they are not supported back to the chassis once the sills are off and the bulkhead rotates about the front ontrigger mountings.

[Nick Jones]

Can see a number of issues with your starting point........

If you've got some decent doors, start there and work from them.  That is pretty much what we did with both Spit and GT6 and they came out ok.  Hardtop was a big help on the Spit.

2 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

simply fitting the hardtop on its own isn't enough to get the gaps right. You will need jack it apart between the A and B pillars and it is quite likely that unless the car was very well braced the A pillars will have dropped too as they are not supported back to the chassis once the sills are off and the bulkhead rotates about the front ontrigger mountings.

^^ But this is very true.  Give your starting point you might actually do better to lop the sills off and then work back to a decent fit.......  We spent a long time on this on our Spit

[RichardB]

Thanks guys, the A pillars have definitely dropped and not evenly. The passenger side you can see in the photo is the worst offender. This is why I think I will need the H frame in as well.

For this reason I bought one of these several years ago:

Although the car does spring back once its all removed, I was able to gauge the extent of the issues by playing around with this and a door gap adjuster on each side.

Push, then clamp, and check for door fit at the back bonnet edge and the front of the rear wing, door being the datum point.

That has given me some hope as the drivers side was pretty good all round once pushed, and the passenger side at least got the front/back door gaps looking good. The underneath gap being hopeless though.

The badly fitting doors caused a few other problems that finally convinced me to bite the bullet and take the car off the road. The drivers door frame had started to shear from hitting the top of the b post, and the a post panel had started to crack around the hinge mountings due to how the lock striker pushed the door upwards once it went into place. The latter obviously needs fixing too to get good alignment as its no use hanging a door onto a weak piece of metal... :/

[RichardB]

Edit: That should read door shell, not door frame, starting to shear.