JohnD Posted January 3 Posted January 3 Speedy, and Colin , By "the same way", do you mean by Equal Lift on Overlap? See: A new method of cam timing - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies And Speedy, stainless engine bolts? Probably safe as multiple fasteners to just hold on the front plate, but as they have less shear strength, less hardness, more tendency to stretch and gall, they are usually avoided except for high corrosion applications. John
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 12 hours ago, Sprint95m said: I have never had any joy with they NOS original type blades, Jacob. My (now sadly deceased ) next door neighbour accidentally bought 35cm original Fiat blades (which were for various tailgates during the naughties) but he had meant to get front ones but the low price on ebay was too tempting....... so he asked if I could use them. I was able to extract the refills and use them on my Dolomite... and this gave really very good rain water removal . Ian I had heard mixed reviews from people who installed the nos ones, I think the quality range in some of the newer chrome ones varies quite a bit. I'm keen to see the results, but I do have a backup pair of the old ones. They weren't to pricey, I believe they came in at a whole £2 more than a set from canley!
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 4 hours ago, zetecspit said: I have found GSF own brand wipers to be pretty good on dolomites, last a year, and cheap. Trouble is teh new plastic clips are not very good, so best to keep the old ones (and any spares) Usefully I discovered that LHD mini wiper arms are available with modern hook ends, and are a perfect fit on spitfires/heralds/vitesse. The "downside" is they are only available in black. I believe minispares do a chrome version that's quite good. A lot of the mini parts that have been improved over the last 30 years seem to perform very well and interchangeable with most BL car bits etc. Minispares do a lot of their own improved versions of parts that often turn out very good. Well on my mini anyway! always forget about them when I'm trying to find improved bits for the gt6.
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 4 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: The TR5 cam is symmetrical so you time it the same way as all the other works cams. You don't actually need an install degree. Yes I had a feeling I could, the page in the factory manual that I couldn't find the last time you pointed out to me
zetecspit Posted January 3 Posted January 3 6 minutes ago, Speedysix said: I believe minispares do a chrome version that's quite good. Do they offer the hooked, LHD type in chrome or stainless? I need to check!
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 2 hours ago, JohnD said: Speedy, and Colin , By "the same way", do you mean by Equal Lift on Overlap? See: A new method of cam timing - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies And Speedy, stainless engine bolts? Probably safe as multiple fasteners to just hold on the front plate, but as they have less shear strength, less hardness, more tendency to stretch and gall, they are usually avoided except for high corrosion applications. John This method had come up and I believe I did it the last time I timed in the mk2 cam with the dot less duplex set. Is it not easier to set it with the degree wheel if you have the magic number? I struggled with this method, well I say struggled, it just took me absolutely ages to do! But I do have all weekend! And yes I will take the flak for the stainless I must add they are only on the timing cover as I misplaced the other bolts. I dare not use them anywhere else! Jacob
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, zetecspit said: Do they offer the hooked, LHD type in chrome or stainless? I need to check! Oops, I apologise zetec, I missed the hook part! sorry to have gotten your hopes up
JohnD Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) Jacob, Yes! Fiddling with two dial gauges is, well, fiddly. But the "New" method I linked to cuts to the essential of the method, Equal Lift. I now use a 'precision' spirit level, rather than the set square in my pics. Level = equal height. Simples! Can make setting quick, but practice, ya gotta practice! John Edited January 3 by JohnD 1
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 3 Posted January 3 41 minutes ago, Speedysix said: Is it not easier to set it with the degree wheel if you have the magic number? The magic number depends very much on the precise cam profile, and as a result what works for one Having tried both ways I don't think so. personally the book way with a couple of feeler gauges works just fine. Certainly within the tolerance of a Triumph timing chain and tensioner system and identifying TDC. I have also used the two dial gauge method with the dummy lifters. I didn't find this any more accurate really. And without the 'magic number' it's all pretty moot in the end. 1
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 51 minutes ago, JohnD said: Jacob, Yes! Fiddling with two dial gauges is, well, fiddly. But the "New" method I linked to cuts to the essential of the method, Equal Lift. I now use a 'precision' spirit level, rather than the set square in my pics. Level = equal height. Simples! Can make setting quick, but practice, ya gotta practice! John I'll give it a go, I've got the whole weekend to playa round with it, rather spend time getting it right than rushing it and getting it wrong! Jacob
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 Well the cam just arrived, however newman have closed, I am slightly suspicious I have a diffrent cam.. Originally I emailed them to order the 35 65 cam and gave the 307689 as the part number, which is the triumph one. He then replied with this is the profile for that cam Obviously this is not correct and what I believe has happened, a large aftermarket cam maker has reproduced the cam but kept the same part number. I rang them and the guy I spoke to didn't really know as it wasn't on their catalogue so he passed me to Ken, who swayed me onto a diffrent profile they reccomend, I believe it was somthing like their ph2 cam, anyway I sort of said yes, it was early in the morning and I've no idea why I did it. I emailed Ken the next day and explained I would like to revert to the 35 65 tr5 tr6 280° cam, the normal works one. Left it a hour and rang him, said he'd seen the email and it's not a problem they'll do that. Great I thought. Cam just arrived, invoice lists it as Tri6/150bhp, no spec. So has their been a miss communication and I've been sent what that screenshot lists as what's supposed to be the 35 64 cam or am I just being paranoid, as they're called the same. Is there a way to check without installing it, incase they've sent the wrong one? They've also stamped it just as tri6 150bhp so no help. And of course they closed at 12! Jacob
JumpingFrog Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) Both my Newman cams have come with a label maker printed label stuck to the cam telling what it is, although also just something like TRIS/270/375, you could check if yours has one? Of course whichever label you trust, it's not definitive unless you measure it, which I don't know of an easy way to do. If the two profiles should have different cam lift, that should be the easiest thing to measure. I've also had a similar experience with Newman recently, being pushed towards a particular profile. I don't want to say anything negative, just that the advice I received from Ken when I bought my last cam in 2019 felt a little more genuine and less about what was easiest for them to produce. Edited January 3 by JumpingFrog
Nick Jones Posted January 3 Posted January 3 “At the checking clearance” is critical when looking at those numbers. As the checking clearance is quite wide @ 25 thou it makes the cam look milder than it is. This is always the problem when comparing cams - in most cases you have no idea what baseline (checking clearance) was used. You might reasonably think it was the the normal running clearance, obviously not here! As David suggests, start by measuring the lift and seeing whether it matches the PH2, PH3 or TR5. 1
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 13 minutes ago, JumpingFrog said: Both my Newman cams have come with a label maker printed label stuck to the cam telling what it is, although also just something like TRIS/270/375, you could check if yours has one? Of course whichever label you trust, it's not definitive unless you measure it, which I don't know of an easy way to do. If the two profiles should have different cam lift, that should be the easiest thing to measure. I've also had a similar experience with Newman recently, being pushed towards a particular profile. I don't want to say anything negative, just that the advice I received from Ken when I bought my last cam in 2019 felt a little more genuine and less about what was easiest for them to produce. They just put the same on mine, and the same scribed on it. My thoughts exactly. I did find this, again same here, nothing negative, I think it's clearly easier for them to pre set the machine to a profile they already have, or on the shelf etc
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 2 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: “At the checking clearance” is critical when looking at those numbers. As the checking clearance is quite wide @ 25 thou it makes the cam look milder than it is. This is always the problem when comparing cams - in most cases you have no idea what baseline (checking clearance) was used. You might reasonably think it was the the normal running clearance, obviously not here! As David suggests, start by measuring the lift and seeing whether it matches the PH2, PH3 or TR5. I'll try that thanks Nick. I have no idea what that profile is from the screenshot and how they may have gotten confused with a 35 65 profile, I feel I've said those 4 numbers too many times now
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 Just measured the lift, definitely 0.250" so rules out any ph cams, just not the one with the same name but diffrent profile. I've emailed Ken but I doubt I'll hear anything until Monday, which is so frustrating as I planned on getting the engine back in over the weekend.
JumpingFrog Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) I think maybe you have the correct cam and Nick is on the money here, as d) and e) are influenced by the checking clearance, and your checking clearance seems extreme (assuming it's 0.025" and not 0.25 mm), maybe that is what reduces your duration from what you expect? FWIW here's the spec sheet Newman sent for my most recent purchase, the duration is what I expected, but the checking clearance is only 0.010" (e.g. less than their recommended valve clearances). N.B: This was meant to be a standard Spitfire Mk.III cam, but they suggested I should go for extra lift, as it was one of their "off the shelf profiles", and I decided to go for it. Edited January 3 by JumpingFrog 1
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 I'll be honest I'm way out of my depth now The checking clearance is the valve piston clearance? And they never actully sent me a spec sheet with my cam order, which is strange. That one was from the original email exchange before I first spoke to Ken. They really don't make it easy with the profile names, which not label mine tr6 35 65 and the one from the screenshot tr6 28 68, it would avoid all this arse ache. I still don't understand the whole checking clearance thing and how that affects the duration of the cam and timing. Is it fairly simple to measure the cam timing and duration with a cam not timed into an engine? I have a degree wheel and one dti. Apologies for the blondness
JohnD Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) I've checked cam shafts on the bench: A degree wheel, a DTI and two V-blocks got some rather pleasing charts: I tabulated my readings on Excel, and thus derived the chart. "Peak inlet at 51.5 degrees ATDC" of course, corresponds to 103 degrees on the crank. See: How to measure a Cam in the Hand - Page 2 - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies where I am taught cams by Alan "oldtuckunder". John Edited January 3 by JohnD 1
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) TR6 150 bhp is the TR5 profile. Checking clearance is the point (degrees) at which the cam starts to lift. So before lobe peak. I am 100% sure you have the correct cam. Set timing as the book and breathe There is too much detail in this thread which is just confusing you as you don't know what it all means. Edited January 3 by Escadrille Ecosse 4
JumpingFrog Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) The thread John linked is excellent if you want more detail and want to measure - although as it is trial and error based, not straightforward to read. The take away is that measuring isn't easy and how advertised durations are measured is black magic. Hopefully it won't confuse you more: The measured duration of the lobe will become shorter as the checking clearance increases. The clearance is to be taken up at the rocker arm, before the valve will start to move. The measured duration starts when the valve starts to open, and stops when the valve closes. Apologies for any confusion, hope the rebuild goes well. If nothing else, Newman should really standardise these spec sheets to use the same checking clearance, at least for the same engine family. Edited January 3 by JumpingFrog 1
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 1 hour ago, JohnD said: I've checked cam shafts on the bench: A degree wheel, a DTI and two V-blocks got some rather pleasing charts: I tabulated my readings on Excel, and thus derived the chart. "Peak inlet at 51.5 degrees ATDC" of course, corresponds to 103 degrees on the crank. See: How to measure a Cam in the Hand - Page 2 - Engine and Ancillary talk - Sideways Technologies where I am taught cams by Alan "oldtuckunder". John Quite the setup John, I'll have to give it a read, thank you Jacob
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: TR6 150 bhp is the TR5 profile. Checking clearance is the point (degrees) at which the cam starts to lift. So before lobe peak. I am 100% sure you have the correct cam. Set timing as the book and breathe There is too much detail in this thread which is just confusing you as you don't know what it all means. I think you're right, rimmer sell the 307689 and newman must supply them, funny that because the bloke at newman who sent that data sheet said 307689 was for one of their UK customers. Single identification ring had been replaced with a 3 ring on the first journal, same as mine. And the rimmer picture has the little sticky dymo label reading tr6/150bhp. You can say that againit's amazing getting all this info and I'm very grateful for everyone sharing their knowledge and helping me, I just don't have that level of understanding.... yet, give me another 20 years and I'll get there
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 22 minutes ago, JumpingFrog said: The thread John linked is excellent if you want more detail and want to measure - although as it is trial and error based, not straightforward to read. The take away is that measuring isn't easy and how advertised durations are measured is black magic. Hopefully it won't confuse you more: The measured duration of the lobe will become shorter as the checking clearance increases. The clearance is to be taken up at the rocker arm, before the valve will start to move. The measured duration starts when the valve starts to open, and stops when the valve closes. Apologies for any confusion, hope the rebuild goes well. If nothing else, Newman should really standardise these spec sheets to use the same checking clearance, at least for the same engine family. Thanks, the more I read yours and nicks post the more it slowly starts to make some sense, thank you for explaining it. They really should, it would make things a whole lot easier. 1 1
Speedysix Posted January 3 Author Posted January 3 Cam going in, let's do this! its already clean but i did make aure it was spotless with the brake cleaner and airline, as well as the bearing faces. A smear of graphogen on the journals and in she went. end float checked, 0.16mm, bang on min factory tolerance. sprocket alignment checked, bang on suprisingly with no shims. Even a 4thou one made it out. Must be the duplex set. I'm going to keep this thread nice an heavy with the pictures and steps over the next few days as this comes together so feel free to call me out on any mistakes, hopefully none Now onto the fun bit Jacob 7
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