Nick Jones Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 The like is for the final result, not the trials endured to get there….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gt64fun Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 10 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: resin/hardener ration is critical and this would have thrown out the proportions by enough to give a substandard cure When I started using epoxy, I had the importance of accurate batching explained by 'likening an epoxy mix to a zip, where each element of base resin must find an element of hardener, otherwise you end up with one side of the zip flapping around freely, which contaminates the mix'. It is particularly difficult for small quantities and I generally use medical syringes for small batches, although the volume ratio is slightly different to the weight ratio as you know. Congratulations on your perseverance and the quality of your parts. It's going to be the lightest Spitfire ever made. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Excellent result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 After dealing with the boiler was out in the garage working on the latest panels. I had glued the inner panel to the boot lid earlier so today was about drilling and cutting holes to fit all the ironwork. Handle and hinge mountings. And then fitted up the lock and inner frame. Had managed to keep that from the when I originally restored the car although I never fitted it to the racer on the grounds of weight saving. Although I got the worst of the rust off the reverse side that never got painted by the factory it still needs a good clean up. Also to a little bit of persuasion to get it straight as well. Between the lock, hinges and frame it adds up to about 50% of the weight of the carbon fibre panel on it's own. That whole lot is just under 3 kg. Next up is the driver's side doorshell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John I Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: That is one shiny finish, no need for paint it only adds weight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 12 minutes ago, John I said: no need for paint it only adds weight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 3kg Obviously you are going to have to make a lightweight frame and lock… Titanium presumably to remain in keeping with the aerospace grade composites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saleon Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Titanium would be a good idea also due to the corrosion problems with bare aluminium and carbon fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 2 hours ago, saleon said: Titanium would be a good idea also due to the corrosion problems with bare aluminium and carbon fiber. Good point there. Anyone know how to weld titanium?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Given your expertise with composites….. is there not a solution in that direction? For the frame that is….. probably not the lock (3D printer for that ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 I did (as you do) spend some time thinking about how I could make a composite frame. However as it would require me to learn about a whole new set of moulding techniques. Most complex closed split moulds with internal vacuum bags and pre-preg carbon. Tricky and especially so on very small diameter tubes. And needs an oven fro curing the pre-pregs. Alternatively there is roll wrapping. Again gets tricky on small tubes and more so on curved ones which probably need sacrificial cores. Still would need closed split moulds for the end fittings where the bolts go. There is also the option of making a half frame that glues directly to the inside of the lid. Along the lines of the internal frame on the later Spitfires but in the shape of the early frames. But again life is too short. So I'm going to pass. Here's some interesting resources on the various techniques though if anyone feels like joining me on this journey. They even have ideas on composite compression moulding. Ideal if you want a bespoke bellhousing for instance. https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/learning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saleon Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 A technique we used to use for tubes/manifolds is to construct the forms from foam, wrap with prepreg then a cosmetic layer. After curing drill two holes and pour in acetone to dissolve the foam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 1 hour ago, saleon said: A technique we used to use for tubes/manifolds is to construct the forms from foam, wrap with prepreg then a cosmetic layer. After curing drill two holes and pour in acetone to dissolve the foam. Yes. That was one of my thoughts about options for sacrificial cores as I have done that before on a different project. Although as the bore of the tubes on the boot lid frame is only about 14mm they would likely be too floppy and fragile in PS foam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 As you are mostly looking for a stiffening effect, why not just shape some foam (or even balsa) batons, bond them on and glass over them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 By replacing the steel lid with carbon fibre I have saved around 6 - 7 kg, in other words fully dressed it's less than 1/3rd of the original weight of the fully dressed steel panel I should also say that 3kg includes ALL the metalwork - tubular frame, lock, lock handle and hinges, nuts and bolts. About 50% of the weight of added metalwork is in the chrome lock handle and hinges! Which I want to keep anyway for aesthetic purposes. So we are well into the law of diminishing returns for any further savings in terms of effort expended. Also unless any layup is vac bagged in some way it will end up very resin rich and hence heavier. With a vacuum system the reinforcement/resin ratio is around 60/40. With an open hand layup it's well the other way round. You would be lucky to achieve much better than twice the weight of resin to composite, likely worse. So for our example it would be quite possible for a hand layup over a core directly onto the lid to weigh more than the steel tube frame it's replacing. The last thing is that the raw infusion finish on the carbon fibre is very clean, just a uniform dimple effect from the peel ply which is quite pleasing. For me any additions to that would need to be at least as smooth and regular which means a(nother) mould and rules out an open layup over a former. Just need to leave the china picnic crockery behind instead Actually I was also planning on not fitting the metal T-R-I-U-M-P-H and Spitfire 4 badges. Which will probably save more weight than a composite frame. And I was planning to use a 3.5" wheel with a 145 tyre as a spare instead of the 5.5" rims and 185/60 tyres. Which will save a good few kg. And give a bit more space in the boot too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 38 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: So we are well into the law of diminishing returns for any further savings in terms of effort expended. Indeed..... just tweaking your tail mainly. It's a thing of beauty already...... why should it have badges - it's your work now not Triumphs! And it keeps 'em guessing. (The Vitesse has almost no badges (there are TRIUMPH letter on the boot lid) and the "circuit of confusion" (where someone, usually male, walks right round it, sometimes more than once whilst wearing his best WTFII expression) is a recognised phenomenon in continental car parks.) Edit: in fact these days the "c of c" can occur in UK car parks too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 17 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Indeed..... just tweaking your tail mainly. I suspected as much . However it doesn't take much of that sort of chat to lead me astray. It's largely how I ended up here in the first place! 17 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Edit: in fact these days the "c of c" can occur in UK car parks too..... Growing up with these cars it is easy to forget how long ago it is now that they were current, or even as classics in regular use. Something that doesn't really seem to exist these days. I blame time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Ah, time. Healer and/or destroyer…. Discuss (but start a new thread!) Geology training changes perspective on time…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Geology training changes perspective on time…… Quite! As does holding your breath... Meanwhile, back at the ranch as they say, I got the second doorshell trimmed and cut out. So after a lot more garage jenga to make some room the car was lowered on the hoist so I could put the bootlid on and start lining up the doors. Also a wee demonstration of the relative weight/stiffness of carbon fibre vs glassfibre. Both lids weigh the same without any of the hardware attached. So without the inner frame fitted, lift one corner until the other one just starts to lift. Unit of measurement is in 'rear light lenses'. Glassfibre lid... ... one lens Carbon lid - used the first dodgy one to save stripping out the frame, etc so not as 'shiny' ... half a lens with this one. So approx. twice the stiffness by my very scientific method. The pukka one with the frame in is pretty much solid. I also got both doorshells on the car with the latches in place but need to make up a couple of jigs so I can line them up to the skins and with both to the car before gluing the parts together. No pictures as it was time to get organised with tea - haggis tonight. Yummy Won't get back out until next week as tomorrow and Sunday the Home Nations track cycling teams are at the Glasgow velodrome to get qualifying times for the Commonwealth Games later in the year and I'm part of the timing team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: Quite! As does holding your breath... Indeed….. though entirely at the opposite end of the spectrum. Nice stiffness demo….. How would a steel one without frame compare I wonder……? Garage Jenga.…. Yeah…… know something about that. Too much (almost) junk in my case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 Remember the one about the old woman who swallowed a fly, or perhaps the toe bone connected to the foot bone, etc? Anyway went to start lining things up to fit the doorskins to the door shells so they both fit the door apertures. Far to many degrees of freedom in all that lot. Needed to shim behind the lock plate on the passenger side a little. So decided to use thick gasket paper which took some hunting down in the garage. Then got that cut out but the securing crews were a bit short so spent more time failing to find some longer screws. These will do in the meantime but got them measured up so I know what size to order. Click the doorshells into place on the latches. They are light enough to stay there supported only by the latch. As I'm putting the passenger site on there's the sound of something small shooting off into the car. Look at the lock and see that the spring clip and wavy washers that hold the remote to the latch are no longer there. Bollocks. Much hunting and I find the two washers but no sign of the spring clip.... Find a small ziplock bag and put all the remaining bits from both sides in there for safety and then put the small bag in the big bag with all the other door ironmongery. Then needed to fit the door hinges so I can get the mounting holes in the front of the doors marked and cut out. But the bonnet is in the way. So need to lift bonnet but the bonnet stay isn't fitted yet. I had never fitted one on this car previously but had one amongst the many boxes of bits around the garage and I had cleaned it all up and painted it a while back. Just need to find it again in the boxes of bits. That done I hunt out a bit of wood to prop open the bonnet while I fit the stay. After turning the damned stay over and over it finally dawns on me that I have fitted the bit with the bend the wrong way round. All fitted and the bonnet is safely held open. Sorted. Except it isn't as now it won't close! The channel section of the stay is hitting the bulkhead when it folds down. Pretty sure they aren't supposed to do this. Much head scratching and looking at photos of Spitfire bonnet stays as everything looks fine. But obviously isn't. Finally finding various photos on line I do some comparative measurements and I am now convinced that the nicely painted stay that I have is actually from a Herald/Vitesse . However the bonnet is up and so to see a small amount of progress I bolted the hinges on the car before giving up and coming in out of the perishing cold in time for tea. Battle will recommence tomorrow no doubt. 'No plan survives contact with the enemy' General Helmuth Von Moltke the Senior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 Thinking about the bonnet stay. The end is nothing clever. Presumably I could just cut a bit off, squash the end of the tube and drill a new hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Herald/Vitesse bonnet stays are completely different....... dunno if there is variations between mk1,2,3 etc. I need to paint my GT6 one...... AS for the rest the pixies hiding your stuff, gravity stealing your stuff...... just normal. Irritating, but normal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 11 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: AS for the rest the pixies hiding your stuff, gravity stealing your stuff...... just normal. Irritating, but normal..... Grrrr..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John I Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 11 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: Grrrr..... It’s inevitable that you find the missing bits after you’ve bought replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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