Life on an Oil Tanker

[PeterC]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:01 PM, thebrookster said:

additive normally used to stop aviation jet fuel from freezing! 

Phil, why arent the jet engines also coated in white powder ? A quick search suggests the fuel de-icer is a glycol, and should burn cleanly Peter

[thebrookster]

On 4/26/2021 at 1:00 PM, PeterC said:

Phil, why arent the jet engines also coated in white powder ? A quick search suggests the fuel de-icer is a glycol, and should burn cleanly Peter

Peter, out of my area of expertise I'm afraid. I do recall some discussion though regarding water content, which is some way linked? Essentially we can tolerate some water in our fuel (bloody hope so, I drain litres of it out the tanks on a daily basis!!) whereas the aviation fuel has zero water.

I may have misunderstood that though, I was earwigging at the time.

Phil

[thebrookster]

On 4/26/2021 at 10:19 AM, Nick Jones said:

What’s the Covid situation on board Phil? Trust you are well?!

Improving, we think Nick?

Today is in theory the last day of official quarantine for those with negative tests, and we seem to have been fortunate that we only had the two positive tests. It looks like pure luck we caught the messman's case at the earliest opportunity and onboard measures were sufficient to contain it.

Bizarrely however, office have said we don't need a final test to close out the quarantine? We are scratching our heads on this, but hey ho.

Of greater concern right now is crew reliefs again. Basically this Indian outbreak is causing manning some serious headaches, and we have been warned that contracts may overrun again this year..........

Phil

Edited April 27, 2021 by thebrookster

[Nick Jones]

11 minutes ago, thebrookster said:

we have been warned that contracts may overrun again this year..........

Oh... joy...... Lucky Phil...... 

[JohnD]

Well done, Phil!    Shows the efficacy of social distancing, lockdown etc. properly executed.  Might be compared wiith other vessels with small crews, like, say, New Zealand.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by JohnD

[MilesA]

Whilst you don't need a test to close out the quarantine period Phil, I would have thought it prudent.

In our house we now have quite a collection of boxes of Rapid Antigen Tests which are almost forced on people as they walk past tour local test centres - almost as bad as chuggers!

On the same theme, we have reached the final chapter on my wife's attempt to become a volunteer vaccinator. She has given up. About 6 weeks a go she attended a day being successfully physically trained in vaccination techniques / etiquette. Two weeks later she had still heard nothing about deployment. She sent almost 30 emails to anyone she had had contact with since she started the process last November, asking how she could now offer her services / ascertain when opportunities arose. Not a single acknowledgement. Not a single reply. So all the effort over the past 5 months s seems to have been a massive waste of time.

Miles

[Escadrille Ecosse]

23 hours ago, MilesA said:

On the same theme, we have reached the final chapter on my wife's attempt to become a volunteer vaccinator. She has given up. About 6 weeks a go she attended a day being successfully physically trained in vaccination techniques / etiquette. Two weeks later she had still heard nothing about deployment. She sent almost 30 emails to anyone she had had contact with since she started the process last November, asking how she could now offer her services / ascertain when opportunities arose. Not a single acknowledgement. Not a single reply. So all the effort over the past 5 months s seems to have been a massive waste of time.

Miles

Depressing, frustrating, stupid and just plain bad manners.

Has she tried giving Boris a call? Apparently that seems to work.

[Nick Jones]

On 4/28/2021 at 10:55 AM, MilesA said:

Not a single acknowledgement. Not a single reply. So all the effort over the past 5 months s seems to have been a massive waste of time.

I’m horrified. In these parts you’d contact the local surgeries who’ve someone coordinating volunteers from vaccinators to mixers to admin to marshalls. 

[JohnD]

Miles, I so sorry that such a well qualified vaccinator as yr wife has been given such a run around.     It has been so easy for me - I was even reinstated as a doctor by the GMC, merely to help my managers avoid some beurocracy!    And, the Medical Defence Union (my old malpractice insurers) said I was covered, even though the work is covered by Crown Privilege!  

Your local organisers are a real bunch of ouankeres!

John

Edited April 29, 2021 by JohnD

[Nick Jones]

10 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Has she tried giving Boris a call?

Yeah, but don't forget, this isn't about what De Piffle can do for you.... ultimately it's about what you can do for De Piffle.....

 

(Even his name is a lie)

[Escadrille Ecosse]

[thebrookster]

Well, it's been a while and for various reasons. Firstly, plenty of vacation from this last trip (eventually flew home early June). And secondly, my current job!

As I mentioned elsewhere, I have been assigned to a new build vessel this time, it is 4 months old and currently trading between Black Sea and Europe. However, to disappoint John, for me this is not as exciting as it could be.

Reason being? They have sent me as an Inventory Engineer! Basically, my job is to count spare parts and liaise with the office as to what is here, and what isn't. Would be an easy enough job if I had been the guy who started it, however in the typical run of bad luck I am the third guy to take the job on and all I have been left to do is the difficult bits the previous incumbents didn't want to tackle. Which mostly involves redoing their jobs and fixing their errors..........

However, it is not all doom and gloom! As this is a busy trade we need 3 watch-keepers, so I am granted a respite from counting and spreadsheets. And just the other day, I met a failure that I haven't come across before. Going for anchor, which requires lots of stop/starts of the engine (we have traditional fixed pitch propellor here). And on one particular start there was an almighty great bang from the engine, and smoke everywhere.

We are not sure why this happened, but essentially number 6 unit fired at the same time starting air was being injected. Starting air pressure of 30 bar Vs combustion pressure of well over 100?

Fortunately such failures are planned for, and the loud bang was the bursting disc giving way. So here are a couple of pics of said disc.

Phil

 

[mpbarrett]

well thats definitely failed! 
Done what it was designed to do but the question is why it happened? Control software bug?

Does this mean you have to update the inventory, -1 bursting disc  

mike

[JohnD]

The Yanks love to refer to "Freeze plugs" as if they will  protect the engine if you forget the antifreeze in a frost.   It's good to know that some 'burst plugs' actually work!

But it burst at 130bar, when normal condition is 100?    Is that a bit low?  What's the Factor of Safety in marine engine usage?    In aviation it's usually 1.5, and for engines, I've seen 6-8!

On your new job,.   A friend, very senior in civil engineering, got cross with me when I complained about being too much involved with the management of my hospital.  "Doctors want to treat patients!" I said.    He pointed out that as one rose in the career ladder, doing what you trained to do became secondary to actually running the business, hospital or ship!    Look on it as post-grad training, a gift from your company!

John

[Escadrille Ecosse]

 

20 minutes ago, JohnD said:

But it burst at 130bar, when normal condition is 100?    Is that a bit low?  What's the Factor of Safety in marine engine usage?    In aviation it's usually 1.5, and for engines, I've seen 6-8!

Would have burst around 100bar John as the pressures aren't additive. Bursting discs are (can be) pretty sophisticated bits of kit that can be set to act very close to operating pressure. We used them as telltales on the old Freon refrigeration unit relief valves at the refrigerated LPG plant as they reduced the risk of fugitive emissions while giving an alarm signal in the event of an RV lifting.

20 minutes ago, JohnD said:

On your new job,.   A friend, very senior in civil engineering, got cross with me when I complained about being too much involved with the management of my hospital.  "Doctors want to treat patients!" I said.    He pointed out that as one rose in the career ladder, doing what you trained to do became secondary to actually running the business, hospital or ship!    Look on it as post-grad training, a gift from your company!

Yeah, too true. However having done that inventory job like Phil it makes your brain hurt after a while. Especially when you get to sorting out the cock-ups and inadequately documented stuff.

Going back to precision bursting discs though back in my days of working in the explosives industry I got a call from a mate on the nitrocellulose plant one morning to ask me to come and have a look at what was known as the interceptor vessel as they had managed to break it.

A very low pressure vessel, looked like a flying saucer to provide sufficient starting head for pumping out the cotton nitrocellulose from the sabilisation vats. It had split while being filled with water from the main due to a bit of inattention and the bursting disc not going. Turned out someone had changed the spec of the bursting disc because the usual aluminium pie dish base they had been using for years was unavailable.

Anyway Phil, good to hear you are back in the saddle

[Nick Jones]

9 hours ago, thebrookster said:

Basically, my job is to count spare parts and liaise with the office as to what is here, and what isn't. Would be an easy enough job if I had been the guy who started it, however in the typical run of bad luck I am the third guy to take the job on and all I have been left to do is the difficult bits the previous incumbents didn't want to tackle. Which mostly involves redoing their jobs and fixing their errors..........

Oh….. deep joy……..

My sympathies. A gruesome job best suited to a very specific type of person which I’m pretty confident you are not!

From my side, with my work hat on as someone who quite often gets enquiries from shipping spares supply companies, a bit of detail is essential if you want to get a quick quote (or even the right pump/part, ever).

We specifically require the pump serial number or commission number to guarantee (well, almost) a match. We can sometimes make an educated guess from full model number and some process details.

”Spares kit pump” and first 4 digits of the model number is entirely insufficient and will be bounced straight back!

As for your bursting disc…..  it appears to have burst …… rather thoroughly in fact.  Impressive.

[Hamish]

well that did its job then !! fascinating stuff. 

only experience i have is with factories that have hinged panels in the structure of the building that deals with (potentially) dusty atmospheres to release the pressure of any explosion from ignited dust. the hatches  flap open rather than the fabric of the building ending up over the neighbourhood.

and this was in the then my council area https://dustsafetyscience.com/a-dark-day-in-cheshire-bosley-mill-explosion/

 

[John I]

2 hours ago, Hamish said:

https://dustsafetyscience.com/a-dark-day-in-cheshire-bosley-mill-explosion/

 

An Italian job gone wrong...............Mr Caine!

[JohnD]

8 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

 

Would have burst around 100bar John as the pressures aren't additive. Bursting discs are (can be) pretty sophisticated bits of kit that can be set to act very close to operating pressure. We used them as telltales on the old Freon refrigeration unit relief valves at the refrigerated LPG plant as they reduced the risk of fugitive emissions while giving an alarm signal in the event of an RV lifting.

I don't understand (clearly!), when Phil said 10 bar was " normal condition" but Phil will explain.

[thebrookster]

Guys, my apologies! I maybe should have given a brief description of the system layout first. This is the problem when conversing with knowledgeable folks here, I tend to forget that you don't have the subject matter knowledge to hand!

The bursting disc is fitted to the starting air system, which has a maximum operating pressure of 30 bar. It is there in case the starting air valve fails, allowing combustion pressures to enter the air system. The disc ideally bursts before the pipework does!

I don't have the exact figures to hand, however as John suggested we operate a safety margin of 1.5, so I assume the disc ruptures at around 45-50 Bar.

Combustion pressures are in the region of 100 Bar at low revs/starting condition. So this is what the disc likely saw.

Why it happened - we aren't sure. However the deckie on the bridge at the time tends to be a bit "trigger happy" with the engine, in some belief that he is playing a computer game as opposed to trying to make an engine that is larger than an average bungalow start turning. We certainly haven't found any actual equipment failure that would point a finger elsewhere..........

[Nick Jones]

2 hours ago, thebrookster said:

However the deckie on the bridge at the time tends to be a bit "trigger happy" with the engine, in some belief that he is playing a computer game as opposed to trying to make an engine that is larger than an average bungalow start turning. We certainly haven't found any actual equipment failure that would point a finger elsewhere..........

Oh yeah..... operator error.  Murder not suicide.  So familiar.  Been "arguing" with a customer today about a burnt-out motor today.  Completely cremated.  Obviously it's our fault as it's only 3 months old......and therefore must be covered by warranty.  It's inverter driven, thermistor protection linked out, he can't/won't tell us what his actual operating parameters are . On the data sheet, the running pressure is very low, so motor is very comfortably sized, in reality, who knows.  Plus he's dismantled the motor for inspection (apparently the stink of burnt insulation wasn't enough), so the motor manufacturer would tell us to take a running jump anyway.  Warranty denied!  He is most unhappy about this and says it can't be inverter settings or a process problem as the identical standby pump hasn't burnt out (yet!).  Yeah.....

Kind of surprised that your controls aren't sophisticated enough to prevent a ham-fisted operator blowing stuff up though Phil?  Especially on a new ship?

[JohnD]

And forgive me too, Phil, but a "deckie", a 'deckhand', a marine labourer, on the bridge, in charge of the engine controls?

Or is this an engineer's term for anyone who can see the sea from where they work?   

 

Last night's "Repair Shop" BBC TV prog featured the book of "Certificates of Discharge" of a fireman (a stoker?) who was on the Titanic when it went down!    He was about to go on duty when the iceberg hit, and he was at his lifeboat station in what he would wear for the stokehold, overalls and little else.   He took command of a lifeboat (would a 'mere' stoker have done that?) and despite the freezing weather was rescued nearly 24 hours later with all 65 people who were in his boat.     The presenters were impressed by the story, which deserved its own programme, but it was mostly about restoring the falling-apart record book.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0010sbz

[Escadrille Ecosse]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Last night's "Repair Shop" BBC TV prog featured the book of "Certificates of Discharge" of a fireman (a stoker?) who was on the Titanic when it went down!    He was about to go on duty when the iceberg hit, and he was at his lifeboat station in what he would wear for the stokehold, overalls and little else.   He took command of a lifeboat (would a 'mere' stoker have done that?) and despite the freezing weather was rescued nearly 24 hours later with all 65 people who were in his boat.     The presenters were impressed by the story, which deserved its own programme, but it was mostly about restoring the falling-apart record book.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0010sbz

Not seen this one yet John. An generally excellent programme that tend to focus a bit too much on people getting all emotional rather than on the details of either the restoration or sometimes tantalising back stories.

This must have been Lifeboat 13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboats_of_the_Titanic

Titanic is incredibly well documented and in my opinion absurdly famous. It's loss while terrible and large was really not that uncommon of that era, in the days before radio big ships would often simply disappear.

I thoroughly recommend reading of The Ocean Railway by Stephen Fox which covers the North Atlantic liners from the early days right up to their effective end (QM2 excepted of course).

Edited October 21, 2021 by Escadrille Ecosse

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

And forgive me too, Phil, but a "deckie", a 'deckhand', a marine labourer, on the bridge, in charge of the engine controls?

Or is this an engineer's term for anyone who can see the sea from where they work?   

 

Last night's "Repair Shop" BBC TV prog featured the book of "Certificates of Discharge" of a fireman (a stoker?) who was on the Titanic when it went down!    He was about to go on duty when the iceberg hit, and he was at his lifeboat station in what he would wear for the stokehold, overalls and little else.   He took command of a lifeboat (would a 'mere' stoker have done that?) and despite the freezing weather was rescued nearly 24 hours later with all 65 people who were in his boat.     The presenters were impressed by the story, which deserved its own programme, but it was mostly about restoring the falling-apart record book.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0010sbz

Hi John,

 the craftsmanship that went into restoring that log book was worth enjoying.

The book binder is truly gifted.

He did another on the same show a year or so back that was even more of a challenge and it looked almost new when he finished.  He didn't renew it as he wanted to try and keep its character Absolute quality.

 

Roger.

[JohnD]

In the BBC prog, EE, we can see that the name of the man who held these certificates was "Dymond", first name 'Frank'.    Close up of book, 16 minutes in.  

BUT!   I never knew how the Titanic disaster was so minutely documented!    The Wiki page details every lifeboat! And includes a picture of the man who commanded Lifeboat 13, Frederick Barrett, who could easily be the man whose phot was shown on the Repair Shop prog!

From Wiki, Fred Barrett

From BBC prog, Frank Dymond

Do you think they could be the same?

But no!    I searched and found, also on the Wiki, the Titanic crew list, that includes Frank Dymond, and lists him as being on Lifeboat 15 (which was nearly lowered INTO No.13, I read.)    Fireman Frank Dymond dsn't get his own page in the Wiki, an extraordinary omission, given the enormous detail on others involved.

But it becomes obvious that many lifeboats were commanded by FIremen, from the Engineering Dept.  Somehow I had the idea that a lifeboat would be commanded by an officer (too many WW2 films, perhaps) but there were only eight officers on the Titanic, so inevitably it was seamen and engineering hands who were detailed to take them in charge.

I think I should apologise to Firemen Barret and Dymond, for calling them stokers.    They were obviously experienced, capable and trusted seamen, whose successful commands saved many lives that night.

John