rogerguzzi Posted October 16, 2021 Author Share Posted October 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Run an old and simple diesel genny on a mixture of kero and used engine oil, Africa style! Hello Nick I think you would find starting it would be a problem and it would coke up quickly. A few stacker truck batteries and an Inverter would probably be better but you would have to limit the load when on batteries(may be a step to far for SWMBO?) I have made my version of a heat pump! I will show you all when it is finished Roger ps I have just finished fitting a radiator into the wood burning stove circuit(small back boiler) so we get a small amount of heat on the landing area when log burner is going(just have to try and get all the floor boards back down now and my knees a killing me! may need some medican later!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted October 17, 2021 Author Share Posted October 17, 2021 Hello All Here is my MAD idea of a heat pump! It is a 120mm x 12volt fan and a bloody big hole in the wall(borrowed a core drill off our son and had the Memsahib holding the garage vaccumn pipe to try and make less dust!) I used a bit if stainlees steel flue liner I had lying about to sleeve the hole. A couple of grills from Screwfix and a 12v differential controller from Bulgaria via Amazon(£8) an adjustable voltage regulator to get from 24v to 12V(a spare from a batch bought cheap from China sometime ago) and the fan was a spare. So I recon it has only cost me less than £20 all in! So the idea is we find the porch is always warmer than the inside of the cottage it faces SSW so catches any sun available There is one sensor next to the porch fan(small black spec to the middle left of the grill) The other sensor is the other side of the entance hall wall and in the Dinning room(just below the ceiling and above the central heating control) So if the porch is warmer than the dinning room the fan runs and hopefully drags in warm air! Roger ps at presant fuel prices it should not take long to pay for it self? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 The back of our house faces south and has a fairly big double-glazed conservatory on it. This heats up really well with only a bit of sun. There are french windows into the kitchen, and we just open them when it’s warmer out there. Only works when there is someone home though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted October 17, 2021 Author Share Posted October 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Only works when there is someone home though. Hello Nick That is the problem and also it is detecting the differance when it is only small! (every little helps at todays fuel prices?) Plus I like gadgets and things and tinkering keeps the old brain active it is just the body thats Knackered! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 On 10/17/2021 at 3:43 PM, rogerguzzi said: Hello All Here is my MAD idea of a heat pump! Passivhaus type approach there Roger. Like it. You got me thinking about our Victorian pile. Air source heat pump would be nice but expensive and requires changing all the radiators amongst other things. Also as we are the upper 2 storeys there are practical issues! PV then. House is perfectly situated as it faces almost exactly due south with a large pitched roof. But we live in a conservation area so solar panels are not allowed on the side facing the road. So basically stuffed. Tempted to knock it all down and build a proper passivehaus (in a factory so it's not made in the mud) but because of the conservation area status not allowed to do that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 8 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: so solar panels are not allowed on the side facing the road. Are you sure? Though things may be different your side of the border, here I think the only distinction is that you have to apply for permission if in a conservation area, and it’s rare to be refused. Certainly some of my conservation area neighbours have them. What about solar tiles? Passivehaus….. meh…. Happened to be on a self-build forum yesterday (a first for me) where there were three passivehaus/near passivehaus occupants moaning that their not needing any additional heating is a myth and you’d have to be a polar bear to live in one through the winter without….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2.5piman Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 Mr Ecosse, I do think heat pumps are seriously over rated. Air source are, I think, particularly poor as the colder the outside ambient temperature is the less heat they generate. The effciency or co-effcient of performance as they term it is based on electrical units which negelects all the losses between generation and consumer, conservatively 50% or so in losses. Electricity is going up in cost and is unlikely to change any time soon. Alec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Are you sure? Though things may be different your side of the border, here I think the only distinction is that you have to apply for permission if in a conservation area, and it’s rare to be refused. Certainly some of my conservation area neighbours have them. What about solar tiles? you may be right there Nick. Certainly it's worth an argument with the planners if for no other reason than to noise them up a bit. It is unfortunately the problem with a lot of Government 'commitments' to reduce emissions that there is little actual real policy on the ground to make it work. Like reducing emissions from cars while allowing endless housing developments that can only be accessed by car. You are right about the passivhaus thing too from what I have heard. 35 minutes ago, 2.5piman said: Mr Ecosse, I do think heat pumps are seriously over rated. Air source are, I think, particularly poor as the colder the outside ambient temperature is the less heat they generate. The efficiency or co-efficient of performance as they term it is based on electrical units which neglects all the losses between generation and consumer, conservatively 50% or so in losses. Electricity is going up in cost and is unlikely to change any time soon. Alec In Scotland yes certainly. The good old pressure/enthalpy diagram showing why as there is insufficient temperature difference across the evaporator, particularly for the types of refrigerants that we can use in this sort of application. But that is the way the policy seems to be heading, largely I suspect because there are not a lot of options for us up here in the colder and less sunny climes. PS I just noticed that whoever made that diagram is a bit shy of literacy, ran out of vocabulary and felt the need to invent 'evaporization'. Reminds me of a training course at BP many years ago when we had someone over explaining how how we were doing it all wrong and caused great hilarity in the room when he quite clearly painted himself into a linguistic corner as he too ran out of vocabulary. The Bard he wasn't. Back on topic. There was a bit of a stooshie in the Highlands and Islands a while back as the Local Authority up there made a big push to up their 'green credentials' to let folks use all that renewable energy in those parts with the carrot that they would save lots of money on their existing LPG/oil heating systems (no mains gas up there). Unfortunately like so much in engineering (and life) the detail actually matters so after spending all the grants those on the receiving end found that their bills actually went up, by a LOT. The initial cost is obviously a big issue with heat pumps too, especially in retrofit situations which is probably upwards of 99% of housing stock. The £450 million over three years just announced will cover maybe 90,000 homes, or 30,000 per year. England and Wales need to be converting 260,000 per year to meet the 'commitment'. Even if the money was there that is probably unachievable in practice just due to the logistics. In Scotland I saw a recent estimate that to meet Nicola's aspiration of us all being off mains gas by 2035 would cost £33 billion - for the 5 and a bit million inhabitants of this neck of the woods. That's a combination of the domestic installations and the generating infrastructure to power it all. As the country Scotland and UK has no real manufacturing base for any of this then I'm not sure where all the money is going to come from. Edited October 19, 2021 by Escadrille Ecosse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said: I'm not sure where all the money is going to come from. Or where the electricity to power it (and all the EVs we are supposed to be buying) is going to come from….. Have been doing some reading on heat pumps. It seems that those who do their homework, but decent kit and get it properly are installed are mostly pretty happy. This is probably also a group that is bright enough not attempt to convert the deeply unsuitable properties. The rest, not so much. I’m not a convert. Looking at battery storage, but also, having recently realised that nearly half my electric bill goes on water heating, considering ways of improving energy storage as heat. This is interesting https://sunamp.com/residential/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted October 19, 2021 Author Share Posted October 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Nick Jones said: Looking at battery storage, but also, having recently realised that nearly half my electric bill goes on water heating, considering ways of improving energy storage as heat. This is interesting https://sunamp.com/residential/ Hello Nick Looks to good to be true but could not see a price? I think I will stick to our 40year old home made solar panels and a hot water cylinder (if you get the extra insulated ones they hardly loose any heat) Roger ps the little radiator I fitted to the little wood burner works a bit slow as it is only thermosyphon(I thought about a small 12volt pump as in the solar circuit but it may be over kill as it would need its own differential temperature controller!) It also works when the gas boiler is on but gets to full heat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 The Sunamp things are fairly expensive (roughly £3k for 9kW equivalent). Similar storage devices using water also exist with far greater choice of designs and manufacturers. They are also a fair bit cheaper (1/2 to 1/3 of the equivalent Sunamp) but significantly bigger. Liking the concept though, not least because I know my current water cylinder is on borrowed time….. and I could use mains pressure water to feed the showers and shoot the bloody pump ( I hate pumps, nothing but trouble ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Nick Jones said: The Sunamp things are fairly expensive (roughly £3k for 9kW equivalent). Similar storage devices using water also exist with far greater choice of designs and manufacturers. They are also a fair bit cheaper (1/2 to 1/3 of the equivalent Sunamp) but significantly bigger. Liking the concept though, not least because I know my current water cylinder is on borrowed time….. Phase change storage (as in the so called thermal battery) is significantly more energy dense that simple thermal storage, order of magnitude difference at least. The Sunamp blurb is seriously light on actual detail but assuming a salt or wax medium you should also be able to get a high quality heat output - in other words actually hot whereas storage utilising specific (sensible) heat capacity of the medium is not only less dense but can't achieve an output temperature greater than the input temperature and needs a high grade energy source -eg immersion heater to get you usable hot water. 3 hours ago, rogerguzzi said: ps the little radiator I fitted to the little wood burner works a bit slow as it is only thermosyphon(I thought about a small 12volt pump as in the solar circuit but it may be over kill as it would need its own differential temperature controller!) It also works when the gas boiler is on but gets to full heat! Pre-central heating days the RAF married quarters all had a coal/coke stove in kitchen to heat the kitchen and hot water tank on a thermosyphon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I've fallen down the heat-storage rabbit hole today..... very interesting stuff. But I particularly like the phase change idea for improving energy density. There must be some caveats to it (like getting the phase change temperature range right?) or surely it would be more commonly used? Seems like a no-brainer? Found this https://www.pcmproducts.net/Encapsulated_PCMs.htm Which seems to be saying you could go with a "conventional" energy storage vessel and "supercharge" it by adding phase change materials...... https://www.pcmproducts.net/files/thermal_storage_catalogue.pdf especially the special rubber balls at the end of this brochure..... Going to have to ring these guys up and interrogate them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 12 hours ago, Nick Jones said: I've fallen down the heat-storage rabbit hole today..... very interesting stuff. But I particularly like the phase change idea for improving energy density. There must be some caveats to it (like getting the phase change temperature range right?) or surely it would be more commonly used? Seems like a no-brainer? Found this https://www.pcmproducts.net/Encapsulated_PCMs.htm Which seems to be saying you could go with a "conventional" energy storage vessel and "supercharge" it by adding phase change materials...... https://www.pcmproducts.net/files/thermal_storage_catalogue.pdf especially the special rubber balls at the end of this brochure..... Going to have to ring these guys up and interrogate them! It's clever stuff. Interested to hear how you get on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 Hello Nick I wish you would not show me all these gizmos I like the look of the balls must read it later and you can talk to them (bulk order through your work((trade)) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gt64fun Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 On 10/19/2021 at 7:59 PM, Nick Jones said: ( I hate pumps, nothing but trouble ) Nick Are you sure you should be saying that !!!??? Ian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I have a couple of these gel handwarmers that I used to carry with me in the winter when I was commuting on the bike. These are effectively supercooled liquids in which clicking the metal disc acts as the crystallisation trigger giving off the latent heat of fusion. https://www.trespass.com/cosie-reusable-gel-hand-warmers#color_code=Not+Applicable&size_legacy=EACH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Gt64fun said: Nick Are you sure you should be saying that !!!??? Ian Few better qualified…… A necessary evil. If you can eliminate the necessary, you can banish the evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, rogerguzzi said: I wish you would not show me all these gizmos I like the look of the balls must read it Pretty clever stuff….. Really curious to discover the downside, surely there has to be a reason why they are not in wider use. Ive launched a number of internet enquires to various green energy installers around the South West. Only one response so far….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escadrille Ecosse Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: Few better qualified…… A necessary evil. If you can eliminate the necessary, you can banish the evil Very well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, rogerguzzi said: Hello Nick I wish you would not show me all these gizmos I like the look of the balls must read it later and you can talk to them (bulk order through your work((trade)) Roger Bit like these “shade balls” something satisfying with that delivery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 So I spoke to the Phase Change Materials company. None other than the boss man I later discovered. He was was pretty forthright. For my application the technology costs too much unless I’m really short of space, which I’m not really. Much more cost-effective just to buy a bigger tank. Bit disappointing…… Did speak to a localish renewables specialist company who have just had a Sunamp training course, so will likely have them in for a chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 Hello Nick Just a bigger tank(modern well isulated) I think some of the rest may work in the right place but at a Price! Old stuff we can repair! Nuff said Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted October 25, 2021 Author Share Posted October 25, 2021 Hello Nick If you go for a bigger tank(well insulater) I would suggest you get one with the imersion heater at the bottom then you could heat the whole tank on Free?cheap electric? You could perhaps have one in the top as well to just heat part of it when using expensive electric? Roger ps when I fitted our new tank I only fitted a 1Kw heater in the top about 12" long so just heats the top which is enough for a couple of showers etc as I draggs the bateries down to much and sod laws says the next day is sunny and the solar panels do it for free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 It's a serious thought. I think you can get twin element ones with top and side mount so I guess you can feed the PV power to the side and put the top one on a timer. The heated water presumably all ends up at the top anyway so if the PV has been doing it's job...... minimal power would be taken by the timed heater..... Also need a loop for the oil. Certainly the lowest aggro/cost option and I'm not finding the Green energy boys very responsive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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