The great "can't fix that" racket

[spitfire6]

Hi,

 You could ground the board where the screw holes are and input if it is a three-wire type. Solder wires to the large input elect-Cap & power It up.
If you don't get around 320VDC on the cap, at least it's on the power side and much easier to fix?

Cheers,

Iain.

[DeTRacted]

Three capacitors on that board  look like they might be tantalums (the blue ones, two together at the top and one halfway down).  It might be worth checking those. 

Service manual here:

https://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/1646346/PANASONIC/VEP01968A/21268/37/VEP01968A.html

 

[spitfire6]

45 minutes ago, DeTRacted said:

Three capacitors on that board  look like they might be tantalums (the blue ones, two together at the top and one halfway down).  It might be worth checking those. 

Service manual here:

https://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/1646346/PANASONIC/VEP01968A/21268/37/VEP01968A.html

 

Hi,
If you are referring to the blue things it's doubtful as they are all on the high-voltage side. I would guess they are just high-voltage Y caps.
Cheers,
Iain.

[Nick Jones]

Appreciate the info Rob - that’s helpful! 

Ian, my next move is to measure the high voltage side, either at the cap or at the rectifier. It’s just that 300+ volts makes me nervous…..

I forgot to mention that I have had similar problems with it before, maybe 10 years ago. That time, all of the electrolytic caps on the low voltage side were obviously in trouble, so I replaced the lot and it worked.  I’m fairly sure that only one of the PSU outputs is permanently on and that powers the clock, part of the tuner (aerial signal only passes through when there is power on) and the remote receiver. When it’s called to on, the rest of the outputs fire up. So it could just be that “always on” output that has failed. This is why i thought that single cap might just do it.

I replaced that with a 50v 1000uF when the original was 16v 1000uF because that’s what I had. Got some 10v ones too but that seemed high risk when some of the outputs are 12v….

[Nick Jones]

Still on capacitors….. I may have mentioned before how much I love the household (in)Saniflo. I may even have mentioned that it was hesitant about starting sometimes, presumably due to a failing motor capacitor.

I actually bought the parts sometime ago but have not been able to muster the energy and enthusiasm to do anything with them.  Well, last night it sat there and buzzed for a full 5 seconds before starting so today is the day. The capacitor is buried deep in it, and I have to rip the bathroom apart to extract the bloody thing.

Here it is…. The old 10uF removed measured 1.3 uF.  The new 14uF installed measured 14.1uF. 
 

Just got to wrestle it back together now, then rebuild the bathroom around it.

Whole new one next time I think as this one needs all the rubber components renewing plus various NRVs and parts are ludicrously expensive.

[A30Racer]

That looks a bit like a glimpse into my working life! The motor must be fairly tough to have put up with that little help on start-up. The new prices of the whole device is quite scary too from what I gather. Oh, what fun!

[RedRooster]

Just checked my DVMs no capacitance settings, hmm. Need a newer fluke. 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

6 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

I may have mentioned before how much I love the household (in)Saniflo.

Saniflo... the gift that keeps giving

DVM with capacitance setting. Made me go and have a look at my Fluke. And no it doesn't. We are in danger of heading down the mini-lathe rathole here...

[spitfire6]

6 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Still on capacitors….. I may have mentioned before how much I love the household (in)Saniflo. I may even have mentioned that it was hesitant about starting sometimes, presumably due to a failing motor capacitor.

I actually bought the parts sometime ago but have not been able to muster the energy and enthusiasm to do anything with them.  Well, last night it sat there and buzzed for a full 5 seconds before starting so today is the day. The capacitor is buried deep in it, and I have to rip the bathroom apart to extract the bloody thing.

Here it is…. The old 10uF removed measured 1.3 uF.  The new 14uF installed measured 14.1uF. 
 

Just got to wrestle it back together now, then rebuild the bathroom around it.

Whole new one next time I think as this one needs all the rubber components renewing plus various NRVs and parts are ludicrously expensive.

I thought I saw two caps in the picture, but now I am not so sure!

[RedRooster]

10 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

 

DVM with capacitance setting. Made me go and have a look at my Fluke. And no it doesn't. We are in danger of heading down the mini-lathe rathole here...

Not just yet, my clamp meter has it. 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

Not just yet, my clamp meter has it. 

And the wallet breathes a quiet sigh of relief 

[Nick Jones]

Yes, bought a new DMM recently. It wasn’t expensive and doesn’t have all the bells and whistles. Not Fluke build quality either, but then it was about 1/8th the price. I’m happy with it.

What I’m NOT happy about is that I appear to have buggered it up. Plaintive voice from the the shower this morning….. “the water’s not leaving”. RCD has popped and won’t reset. 
 

Out with the Aquavac (100% essential kit in any Saniflo inflicted household) and bail out the shower tray, the bog, the cistern and then, after a bit of dismantling, the bastard box itself. I did measure the resistance to earth which was in the KOhms region measured with a DMM (!), so unsurprising the RCD was unhappy (they are GOOD things!).

Dragged the pump assembly out and, yes the switch chamber is FULL of “water”. In spite of genuine (expensive) new diaphragm, clip and very careful assembly.

Have successfully done this job before so really don’t know what’s gone wrong. Also, for the switch box to fill up as it was, water has to get past both seals I disturbed and both look fine…..

So, can I successfully dry it out? And can I discover how the water is getting in and prevent it?

Cheapest locally available new unit is £630. Cheapest anywhere £530 - so I’m fairly motivated!

[Nick Jones]

Dried it out. Switch treated with WD40 and contact cleaner.

DMM now measures infinity (within its low voltage limitations) to earth and across the switch when open. Closed switch reads 0.00.

Connected it up outside the box and it seems happy. Phew…..

Have spent too long trying to figure out how the water got in. Nothing obvious or provable. Now mostly carefully reassembled (the motor/switch assembly) and developing a testing method to try to head off further disappointment….

[RedRooster]

Do you have a megger? 

[Nick Jones]

No Megger. I think the motor itself is behind another layer of sealing, maybe even oil filled. That part of it is fairly decent, it’s the horrible plastic box and fittings it comes in.

It’s back in and working….. long may it continue!

[Escadrille Ecosse]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

it’s the horrible plastic box and fittings it comes in.

And the horrible 'stuff' the whole contraption goes in

[Nick Jones]

16 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

And the horrible 'stuff' the whole contraption goes in

Well, there is that. Though it’s been on a “no solids” diet for several months following a solids blockage due to low motor torque due the knackered capacitor (this is what caused the capacitor purchase).

I’m going to encourage the continuation of the no solids diet.

 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

4 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I’m going to encourage the continuation of the no solids diet.

Given your position as the elected repair man it seems only fair

[rogerguzzi]

3 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Well, there is that. Though it’s been on a “no solids” diet for several months following a solids blockage due to low motor torque due the knackered capacitor (this is what caused the capacitor purchase).

I’m going to encourage the continuation of the no solids diet.

 

Hello All

              So is that liquid diet (ie drink and a few crisps???)

Sounds good to me or use the Bog at work for the heavy stuff?

Roger

ps with a nice cess pitt that has a pipe I fitted to take the water off the top and has not been pumped out for a least 40 years just chuckles away to its self! with a nice big crust which to me means its working?? plus we do not put rubbish down it!

[Nick Jones]

9 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

So is that liquid diet (ie drink and a few crisps???)

Fortunately we have other facilities. Two in fact now the soil pipe for the downstairs loo is mended. It’s long been an irritation to me that certain family members will walk past two working toilets on the way to use the most distant one that relies on two unreliable pumps to function  

[Nick Jones]

9 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

ps with a nice cess pitt that has a pipe I fitted to take the water off the top and has not been pumped out for a least 40 years just chuckles away to its self! with a nice big crust which to me means its working?? plus we do not put rubbish down it!

Low loading and a “good culture” does allow long intervals. 40 years is fairly exceptional though!

[RedRooster]

That's mental, mine was around 20m2 or more from the cow shed but due to environmental regs we are now on a septic tank. 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Yeah. Not really allowed cesspits these days. But if the property is old (no records) and you avoid leakage no-one will check unless you go to sell.

When well sited and used carefully/sparingly they work remarkably well. The one at the croft is around 70 years old from when the mains water went in and I can only remember it being sucked out once a loong time ago. Peer in occasionally but still working just fine.

[Nick Jones]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:09 AM, Nick Jones said:

Appreciate the info Rob - that’s helpful! 

Ian, my next move is to measure the high voltage side, either at the cap or at the rectifier. It’s just that 300+ volts makes me nervous…..

I forgot to mention that I have had similar problems with it before, maybe 10 years ago. That time, all of the electrolytic caps on the low voltage side were obviously in trouble, so I replaced the lot and it worked.  I’m fairly sure that only one of the PSU outputs is permanently on and that powers the clock, part of the tuner (aerial signal only passes through when there is power on) and the remote receiver. When it’s called to on, the rest of the outputs fire up. So it could just be that “always on” output that has failed. This is why i thought that single cap might just do it.

I replaced that with a 50v 1000uF when the original was 16v 1000uF because that’s what I had. Got some 10v ones too but that seemed high risk when some of the outputs are 12v….

Back on this...... took my brave pills and measured the high voltage bit.  340v DC present, though seems to be polarity reversed - ie with red probe on the + DMM indicates - voltage.......  Anyhoo... seems that bit works.  Onwards...

[JohnD]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:51 PM, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Yeah. Not really allowed cesspits these days. But if the property is old (no records) and you avoid leakage no-one will check unless you go to sell.

When well sited and used carefully/sparingly they work remarkably well. The one at the croft is around 70 years old from when the mains water went in and I can only remember it being sucked out once a loong time ago. Peer in occasionally but still working just fine.

Ah, the cesspit, the archaeologist's favourite!  Why do archaeological cess pits matter? - University of Birmingham