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Spitfire vs Midget


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It's a set-up.

Or else the Midget driver has no idea about corners.

Several times, he gets ahead of the Spitfire - and then stays on the outside of the corner, letting him through!

Fun, but I'd rather see real racing.

 

John

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Midget pulls away on the straights - obviously faster car....   looked like a setup to me too!  

 

How do the spit and midget compare as race cars? Often wondered...  I supposed like for like track times from comparable race series would be a good yardstick?

Jon

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Midget and A-series have had and got  that many years development in so many cars compared to the Spitfire/Herald i have to say that there are a lot more quicker Midgets/Sprites than there are Spitfires plus the MG market is a lot bigger for specialist suppliers to invest in.

 

There are a few fast Spits out there but definatley a lot more fast Midgets

 

 

Ian

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In my Southern California racing club the Sprites can kill the Porsches.  They are virtually unbeatable.  They all run about 1400 cc's and around 1200 pounds.  Coupled with some excellent suspension tuning they can run me down easily anytime they choose.  These are all Tom Colby cars and he is VERY well known in Spridget tuning circles.  He was the US Sprite champion in his all steel Vintage legal car wiping all of the state of the art current spec GRP SCCA cars.

 

 

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Well i have spoken to a few engine builders that reckon the Spitfire MK3 (FDprefix) was as good as an A-series and i think it was our own GT who said that the only reason a six port A-series is as powerful as a 8 port Triumph engine is down to the combustion chamber (I think GT said the A-series has a Westlake deign.)

 

But it all boils down to how many cars out run the A-series engine eg Sprite,Midget,A40,A30.A35,Morris Minor,Metro,Austin1300, That is a huge market lets see how many cars ran the 1296cc Small Crank Triumph Engine Spitfire mk3 and Herald 1360.

 

See why performance Triumph parts are so expensive in comparison they are not worth R&D its easier to make bespoke one off items for customers paying a premium rate.

 

If i was running a business building performance engine componenets for example you would have to choose the A-series because of the big market to sell to admitadley you will have more competition but you would probably still sell more than you would for a Triumph.

 

 

 

Ian

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What are the SCCA badges in the US Spitfires all about, presumably the must have won some championships against Midgets etc back in the day?

 

Those badges celebrate the period when Triumph dominated their classes in SCCA racing.  It was done with a superb blend of engineering, political and driving skill.  Cash was never an available advantage to our boys in the day.

 

It's kind of apples and oranges now.

 

Back in the late sixties early seventies SCCA production car racing was very rules bound and required most of the original equipment on the cars.  Stock rods, trans, diff, even bumpers required.  Carburation was as delivered.  No SU substitutes for the Triumphs.  That's where the clever people in each camp developed the tricks to gain the unfair advantage.  When you read Kas's old books he's not telling you how to adapt a Cosworth head to the car, he's telling you how they WON repeatedly against the Porsches and Datsuns of the time with Stanparts.  No Mahle pistons allowed.

Sprites wouldn't even run with a 1300 Spitty, they competed against the 1147's and faced the same constraints as the rest of the competitors.  So in the day the Triumphs really were superior to the Sprites and MG's but technology and rules creep has eroded that advantage.  I can beat most Porsches and most MG's but can't beat the killer Sprites from Colby.  Different times.

 

Nowadays it's a whole different world with very few limitations on construction.  EVERY car runs Webers.  Engine internals are free while brakes are supposedly stock.  There is no minimum weight anymore.  Tyres are beyond comparison with the day.

Some of the clubs try to control the technology but the cat's out of the bag.

 

 

 

As an aside, here's a link to a Datsun report of the 1970 Championship.  http://www.datsun.org/fairlady/Fitzy1970.htm

 

Note the last paragraph where they observe the rear hub had been broken for several laps before the tyre let loose.  Kas remembers it coming off in the last turn but they say it was at the flag.  Whatever.

 

This was the SCCA championships, the biggest race of American champions.  Hundreds of clubs raced across the country to select the divisional champions to send to the nationals.Thousands of Triumphs were battling across the US for the honour. At least fifty of them would've gone to the finals and there's probably fifteen different classes represented.  It takes a week to run the event.  ANd they all competed to the same strict rules!

 

Next time somebody professes Yanks don't know a thing about building Triumphs give a thought to the natural selection, the Darwinism, that those masses represent.  Some squirrel had to find an acorn somewhere, Eh?

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Hmmmm....

Years ago (Paul) used to have problems with midgets, then he just got a lot quicker...the Lotus 7s and really quick caterhams were then a bit faster until he worked them out too.

That car just got quicker and quicker and in the end none of those things could get near him.

 

The only car I remember quicker than him in the 80s and early 90s was a very fast TURNER.

That thing had had fortunes spent on it to breach the magic 500kg barrier.eg:-

 

http://www.turnersportscars.co.uk/t_homeMKIIIc.JPG

 

http://www.turnersportscars.co.uk/t_home.html

 

So the FD Triumph engine CAN produce the goods right up to 9000, and that without  a steel (rubber!) crank, but you're still struggling with a car that with a seperate chassis, weighs too much.

+

Seems as usual it comes down to valves and cylinder head.

A series engines just LOVE valve lift......Triumph engines instead are a real pain to make work right.

 

I'm not a believer in anything Mowog, the last decent MG was made in 1930-50, after that mostly cr...p...especially that 'orrible twin cam thing they made for the MGA.

 

A friend in Alsace has one of those 1200cc MG compressor thingies from the early days, you know the one with bicycle wheels and weighing about 300kg.

That goes alright! 150bhp and no weight, makes all those MGB, MGC etc look totally stupid.

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Should have known it wasn't as straight forward as all that!  

 

In my opinion the MGB and MGC looked stupid the moment they left the factory.

 

I'd still be interested in finding some comparative lap times, just for curiosity. Anyone point me in their general direction?

 

 

 

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It's a set-up.

Or else the Midget driver has no idea about corners.

Several times, he gets ahead of the Spitfire - and then stays on the outside of the corner, letting him through!

Fun, but I'd rather see real racing.

 

John

 

Actually I see it as the Midget staying wide to give racing room to the Spitty as I suspect he knows the Spit is better under braking and will be under him in the corner  . Gentlemanly racing which should be applauded. After all club racing is for fun not for cutting the nose off your opponent car :)

 

And the Midget can have the Spit on the next straight anyway and I suspect would have won if he had not gone the wrong side of the backmarker on the final straight.

 

Andy

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