Triumph TR6 Emerald K6 mapping and tuning

[TVR vixen]

just hoping for some feedback guidance from those who have already mapped a TR6.

the base map came pretty much like the two attached tables, the only changes i have made so far are in the idle tuning area.

getting ready to take it out for a road tune, hopefully using emeralds closed loop feedback function, but of course it will only work if the map is somewhat close enough. Being a novice I am not sure what to make of the numbers emerald put in the tables, for example the ignition "curve" doesn't seem to make sense as i would expect there to be a gradual increase in advance diagonally across the table with it topping out at 32 degrees or thereabouts, but then i have never seen it expressed in table format like this so maybe i am just not seeing the progression as RPM and load increases.

However in the meantime i was wondering if any of the numbers in the tables look out of place, weird or just wrong, obviously any changes i make at this stage will be subject to further changes based on Lambda sensor feedback but i would like to get it as close as possible before i venture out and i have had no help from emerald to date and of course i am across the pond in Canada, so i cant exactly drop by and make a nuisance of myself.

Any help would be much appreciated

TIA

Mark

[Nick Jones]

Hi Mark, somewhat handicapped by no experience with Emerald. Do you have full mapping software and access to all parameters?

I was initially confused by the tables until I realised they are the opposite way up from the MS ones I’m used to.

The fuelling one is fairly meaningless in absolute numbers but seems to trend in the right direction. Have you inputted basic information like engine displacement, injector flow rates, injector firing strategy etc?

The timing one looks “very safe”, though it’s possible that the numbers shown are additive to a static setting? Are you able to input a static setting separately in software or is this determined by sensor and trigger wheel positioning?  It’s definitely worth using a timing light to check that the numbers on the screen match reality before doing any serious tuning.

A quick read up on the K6 suggests you should also have an AFR target table which, provided you have a wideband O2 sensor, can be used, with what they call “adaptive mapping” to modify the fuelling table as you drive around.  If this works like the MS /Tuner Studio “auto tune” it’s an incredibly powerful tool that should allow you to do nearly all the fuelling mapping on the road. This of course assumes that the target table is sensible - are you able to post an image of that?  I can provide a couple of mine for comparison, though they will be inverted.

[TVR vixen]

Thanks Nick 

yes the kit comes with full access to the mapping software and as far as I can see you can change just about any parameter you wish to achieve the target AFR, including injector duration, timing etc etc. yes I can post the AFR table the reason I didn’t above is because last time I looked at it it was just filled from corner to corner with 13.7 I think across the board.

the initial idle timing is synced with the software, I synced it at 13 degrees on the front pulley and in the software and then the software can be trimmed to provide the desired curve.

i guess I may be over thinking things and should just venture out for a drive with it set to adaptive closed loop although reading the manual it can only change fuelling up to the specified min max offsets and I will still need to manually adjust the timing which is the table I would like to get very close before venturing out. But maybe I will need a friend to adjust the timing on a couple of drives first to get it closer.

just driving it across the farm yard yesterday it was obvious it objected to any substantial deviations from a progressive curve which makes sense, however I am finding it hard to visualize how that curve would translate into values across the table.

i don’t think the closed loop provides any feedback on ignition only fuelling which I think means the ignition map is the most important first step to get right ? 
I cannot seem to find any ignition tables online to compare.

like you say the MS ones are the other way round lol although I guess I could flip them around in a spreadsheet to try and replicate assuming the two axis values are similar which I would expect they are.

thanks again for your help.

i will have to switch to my laptop to upload a screen shot of the AFR table later.

regards

mark 

[Nick Jones]

Just done a bit of reading of the K6 manual. Page 32 on is what you need for the adaptive tuning. Doesn’t look quite as friendly as Tuner Studio auto tune but still a very powerful tool.

No, it won’t do ignition. That’s a manual process. I’ll post up my 2.5 PI table when I’m at the PC, and also the target table. You’ll have to transpose them but should give you a bit of a feel.

With care you should be able to get a safe road-able tune.  In fact it’s my belief that you get a better road tune this way. For wide-open-throttle,  4.5k upwards you need to be careful. Not more than 30 degrees advance and 12.3 - 12.5 AFR. Probably it’ll take a bit more timing and want to be a little leaner but best determined on a dyno. Likewise, best part throttle ignition advance at typical cruise points can be determined very quickly on a dyno with rpm hold function, though with knock detection headphones and a driver helper you can do this on the road pretty effectively.

[Nick Jones]

Ignition map - this was a 2.5 PI saloon (132 cam)

Target table (Vitesse 2L with PH2/3 hybrid cam). Possibly a bit lean in the mid/upper mid 1800-3900.  Apparently this is my current one.....

and this is the Tuner Studio default target table

You'll note this is alot different from mine.  Partly because mine is probably a bit lean (but it runs well) and partly because the default table is clearly intended for a much milder cam generating more manifold vacuum

[Nick Jones]

And this is what TS thinks my Vitesse target table should look like - based on pretty minimal data.

 

Actually your default 13.7 across the board isn't a daft starting point.  Once tuned to that in the low end and mid-range areas it will likely drive well but a be a little thrsty.  Don't push it hard though as 13.7 is too lean for high load /rpm conditions!

[spitfire6]

Hi,

are you using MAP or TPS for load?

Cam sensor?

Idle valve or timing for idle control? Looks like an idle valve?

What's your MSPB (Under injection timing).
Cheers,
Iain.

[TVR vixen]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

And this is what TS thinks my Vitesse target table should look like - based on pretty minimal data.

 

Actually your default 13.7 across the board isn't a daft starting point.  Once tuned to that in the low end and mid-range areas it will likely drive well but a be a little thrsty.  Don't push it hard though as 13.7 is too lean for high load /rpm conditions!

Thanks Nick 

this will be very helpful, I will get to some tuning this week and see how it pans out.

your ignition table I think will be very helpful as a benchmark to get me rolling.

I was just finishing off some outstanding items this weekend before I take it for a drive.

Fingers crossed all goes well

best regards

mark 

[TVR vixen]

24 minutes ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi,

are you using MAP or TPS for load?

Cam sensor?

Idle valve or timing for idle control? Looks like an idle valve?

What's your MSPB (Under injection timing).
Cheers,
Iain.

Hi Iain,

TPS is primary load with map as secondary.

yes we are using a cam sensor for timing.

not using an idle valve at this time, we have just done a basic cold start set up for now using extra fuel to get it up to temp.

dave recommended just adding fuel for now and leaving ignition alone until the overall mapping is done, that way we won’t be re doing too much of the ignition map.

i asked Dave if he would share a map of a tr6 which they have tuned and he said he would get Karl to send one but nothing for three weeks so I think it will be down to me now.

you had them tune yours in 2019 I think ? Almost identical build I think we have a ph2 cam and reasonably well ported head.

im curious to see what your ignition map looks like if you fancy sharing ?
 

currently we have the injectors on the standard 61 base setting but only really tuned for start up and idle type scenarios so far, although I did drive it around the farm yard Friday for shits and giggles lol.

spent today converting the tachometer from RVI to RVC so that it can read the square wave signal

thanks for the interest 

best regards

mark 

 

[TVR vixen]

[spitfire6]

at karls.map

Hi Mark,

here is my *.map of my K3 from Dave/Karl.
How are you able to have MAP & TPS? I wish I had MAP for ignition.
Cheers,
Iain.

[TVR vixen]

2 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

at karls.map 1.39 kB · 3 downloads

Hi Mark,

here is my *.map of my K3 from Dave/Karl.
How are you able to have MAP & TPS? I wish I had MAP for ignition.
Cheers,
Iain.

hi Iain,

Thank you very much for the copy of your map I should be able to translate a lot of the key metrics over into my k6 and see how the engine runs.

tbh I am still a novice  at this efi magic but as I understand it having both sensors providing the ecu with feedback allows the ecu to be more responsive and a little less reactive.

the Map sensor is providing the ecu with the exact amount of air being drawn into the engine and is therefore a little more reactive whereas the TPS is providing more of what the driver wants when he or she stabs the throttle pedal translating into relative butterfly opening information

 Therefore having both sensors there gives the computer the exact want of the driver as well as the amount of air flow going into the engine.

i got both based on advice from emerald and others and if it gets messy I can always disable one, but I do like the idea of a system with a backup sensor as well as a little redundancy and more feedback to the ecu. Dave a Karl say it can cope with both inputs so we shall see how it all works out in practice.

thanks again

very much appreciated 

regards

mark 

 

[spitfire6]

55 minutes ago, TVR vixen said:

4 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

at karls.map 1.39 kB · 3 downloads

Hi Mark,

here is my *.map of my K3 from Dave/Karl.
How are you able to have MAP & TPS? I wish I had MAP for ignition.
Cheers,
Iain.

hi Iain,

Thank you very much for the copy of your map I should be able to translate a lot of the key metrics over into my k6 and see how the engine runs.

tbh I am still a novice  at this efi magic but as I understand it having both sensors providing the ecu with feedback allows the ecu to be more responsive and a little less reactive.

the Map sensor is providing the ecu with the exact amount of air being drawn into the engine and is therefore a little more reactive whereas the TPS is providing more of what the driver wants when he or she stabs the throttle pedal translating into relative butterfly opening information

 Therefore having both sensors there gives the computer the exact want of the driver as well as the amount of air flow going into the engine.

i got both based on advice from emerald and others and if it gets messy I can always disable one, but I do like the idea of a system with a backup sensor as well as a little redundancy and more feedback to the ecu. Dave a Karl say it can cope with both inputs so we shall see how it all works out in practice.

thanks again

very much appreciated 

regards

mark 

 

Hi Mark,
I did not know you could use MAP & TPS, I thought it was one or the other. I know fueling and spark timing must be one or the other. Is the TPS just functional on acceleration function?

Cheers,
Iain.

[BiTurbo228]

18 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi Mark,
I did not know you could use MAP & TPS, I thought it was one or the other. I know fueling and spark timing must be one or the other. Is the TPS just functional on acceleration function?

Cheers,
Iain.

The term for a blended approach is 'alpha-n' if you're googling (no idea why). MAP at low throttle openings when TPS isn't fine-grained enough, then TPS at bigger throttle openings when you lose pretty much all vacuum for >75% of your load map.

Edited April 9 by BiTurbo228

[spitfire6]

Hi,

I thought Alpha-N was TPS only? Does the case make a difference, N vs n?
I'm pretty sure the K6 does not have a blending option as it's the same SW that's used on my K3 that does not. 

Cheers,

Iain.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Mark         

                 I use ITB mode on my Spitfire with ITB's 

It seems to work well 

I averaged 45MPG last year over 5,800miles

This is my settings at the moment!

I use Microsquirt and Tunerstudio MS

Roger

[spitfire6]

I don't think I would get 45mpg going down a hill. 

[TVR vixen]

6 hours ago, BiTurbo228 said:

The term for a blended approach is 'alpha-n' if you're googling (no idea why). MAP at low throttle openings when TPS isn't fine-grained enough, then TPS at bigger throttle openings when you lose pretty much all vacuum for >75% of your load map.

Hi biturbo228

Every days a school day for me, thank you.

i remember asking them when I ordered the kit along with a custom loom, what all would I need and the map sensor was on the list they provided. At this point I designed the loom including the map sensor location.
i understand it should give a better driving experience with both, I guess we shall find out how it all pans out.
The MAP can be disabled in the program so it’s no biggie, and I definitely don’t know enough at this stage to explain so I will research some more and ask the experts.

Hopefully Stefan who runs our local dyno can tell me more when he does the tuning ?
best 

mark 

[spitfire6]

48 minutes ago, TVR vixen said:

Hi biturbo228

Every days a school day for me, thank you.

i remember asking them when I ordered the kit along with a custom loom, what all would I need and the map sensor was on the list they provided. At this point I designed the loom including the map sensor location.
i understand it should give a better driving experience with both, I guess we shall find out how it all pans out.
The MAP can be disabled in the program so it’s no biggie, and I definitely don’t know enough at this stage to explain so I will research some more and ask the experts.

Hopefully Stefan who runs our local dyno can tell me more when he does the tuning ?
best 

mark 

Hi,
Maybe you are using the MAP sensor as a barometer?
Cheers,
Iain.

[Nick Jones]

7 hours ago, BiTurbo228 said:

The term for a blended approach is 'alpha-n' if you're googling (no idea why). MAP at low throttle openings when TPS isn't fine-grained enough, then TPS at bigger throttle openings when you lose pretty much all vacuum for >75% of your load map.

My understanding is that Alpha N is TPS only. Blended or ITB mode is a mix of both, using MAP at small throttle openings where there is vacuum, transitioning to TPS as the throttle opens and the vacuum signal becomes unusable. On the MS version I’m using there’s an additional characterisation curve that is supposed improve the transition. Creating that involves data logging and some fairly simple maths.

[rogerguzzi]

35 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

My understanding is that Alpha N is TPS only. Blended or ITB mode is a mix of both, using MAP at small throttle openings where there is vacuum, transitioning to TPS as the throttle opens and the vacuum signal becomes unusable. On the MS version I’m using there’s an additional characterisation curve that is supposed improve the transition. Creating that involves data logging and some fairly simple maths.

Hello Nick

                 I have forgotten most of what I did but to me it made more sense with ITB's !

Spitty not perfect I suspect a rolling road trip would sort it better  but it good enough for this Daft Old Bugger and I still tinker now and then!(plus about 45mpg over the Whole year((5800miles))I can live with!)

plus she pulls like a train at 3000rpm(even in top gear o/d with all the kit in when travelling)which is 70mph! 

I would like to get to the bottom of the second MAP for high places as I think I have back to front at the moment but seeing as we are going on an Alpine trip later in the year 

We are doing at least 10 Alpine passes and the lowest one is 5750ft (1757m in funny measurements!) so enough to affect the fueling(goodness knows how the 2 TR6's will get on?) plenty of plug changes I suspect?

Still an easy trip to Spain first and see a few more Castles etc(and maybe drive across the odd dam or two??)

We are going to Visit Salamanca and Toledo amonst other places but more 2 night stops and selfcatering and probably only about 1500 miles total!

Roger and the Memsahib

[BiTurbo228]

10 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

My understanding is that Alpha N is TPS only. Blended or ITB mode is a mix of both, using MAP at small throttle openings where there is vacuum, transitioning to TPS as the throttle opens and the vacuum signal becomes unusable. On the MS version I’m using there’s an additional characterisation curve that is supposed improve the transition. Creating that involves data logging and some fairly simple maths.

Ah well done! Me confusing my terms. You're definitely right that alpha-n is TPS, and blended is both.

My understanding is that blended is definitely the way to go (not that I've done it myself).