Stop Start Batteries

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Al

             The Daughters Citroen C4 Grand Picasso 2016 1.6 Diesel is having flat battery problems!

She has tuneed off the Stop Start bit and I will check the Alternator output tomorrow!

If it is just the battery(probably original one!) do we need to get an Expensive Stop Start one or would an Good ordaninary one be OK?

Roger

 

[Nick Jones]

This might help

https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=71537

If it’s the original it’s done well.  I’m not sure that the term “ordinary battery” really applies on modern stuff - needs to be the right size, right type (AGM by the looks) and decent quality. Will like be expensive. The 096 is the same size as my A8 and it’s BIG.

[JumpingFrog]

Did the one in my BMW, which has stop start. The price wasn't that bad, £150 (big, 019 size) from Tanya Batteries. Had the original BMW branded Exide AGM one from 2009 when I bought it so figured buying the same wouldn't be bad economy.

Swapping to an ordinary battery maybe possible but will probably involve playing with the ECU to downgrade the car to a model without stop/start. Allegedly (at least on BMWs) not setting the correct battery chemistry or "registering" a new battery will result in the "intelligent" alternator overcharging and killing the new battery within 6 months.

I'm also not using stop start, mostly to try and save the notoriously weak timing chain, but messing around with the ECU settings and potentially killing a new battery seemed like a fool's errand for a small saving.

Edited December 20, 2023 by JumpingFrog

[JohnD]

Your BMW doesn't - GASP! - have a button to turn off Stop/Start?   Surely not!?!

My little Peugeot does!   and I use it as I can't stand S/S.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

                I checked the Alternator output and at tickover a nice 14.25 volts so I assume thats ok(Phew!)

I have ordered a battery from BMS Technologies Ltd and even found a discount code(just a poor Pensioner ?)

This is the one I have gone for and they were the best price for a known make and 4 years thingy!

Yuasa YBX7096 EFB Car Battery: Type 096 – BMS Technologies LTD

Plus it was only £95 so not bad for this type of battery just have to work out how to get the Baarsteward out and this one in?(not easy like a Triumph?)

Thank's for the advice (makes the donation well worth it?)

Roger

ps so of the online traders are taking the P**s with their prices for the same battery!!!!!!!!!!

[John I]

Our bmw needs to maintain a 12v supply when swapping out batteries so all the fancy electronics (which I don’t want) don’t lose themselves and need to be reset/rebooted.

why do they have to be so blxxdy complex!

[JumpingFrog]

On 12/20/2023 at 8:40 PM, JohnD said:

Your BMW doesn't - GASP! - have a button to turn off Stop/Start?   Surely not!?!

My little Peugeot does!   and I use it as I can't stand S/S.

It has... But it doesn't remember the choice by default so you need to remember to turn it off every journey, it was very annoying. If you play with the ECU configuration with special software you can get it to remember (which I've done). Don't get me started on the fact the battery is in the boot which can be only opened electrically, there's a terminal post under the bonnet for such situations, but you better hope you didn't leave the positive cable touching anything else or you'll need to climb in there.  And this is still an old car, as John I says, more modern ones are even worse.

All I meant by my post, was that if a car is designed and configured for a particular type of battery, particularly if we're talking about cars with S/S and "intelligent" battery monitoring, changing battery type might not be possible or at best involves ECU reconfiguration. Charging curves between different types of battery are slightly different e.g. AGMs have a slightly higher bulk charge voltage than standard batteries - that is the point at which you stop constant current charging and switch to constant voltage float charging. Standard batteries also generally tolerate a lower bulk charge current compared to AGM:
https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/flooded-batteries-vs-agm-batteries-understanding-the-differences/

Charging graphs look something like this:


All this said, the battery in my Herald with an ancient and very unsophisticated ACR alternator seems to soldier on perfectly fine. Similarly, I've always charged car batteries with a simple dumb charger and I've never had any issues with battery lifespan. I suppose the importance of correct charging curves is more an issue when you're deep cycling the battery with a S/S system or because you're using them for energy storage in a solar system.

Edited December 22, 2023 by JumpingFrog

[JohnD]

My principle worry about the  S/S system was in heavy traffic, when the engine stopped at every halt, and a restart was needed a few seconds later, repeatedly.  Surely this will run down the battery?  And what happens then?  Do I ask the guy behind for a push start?        I am informed that the car is smart enough to cancel the S/S program if the battery gets too low, which rather spoils the whole idea!

John

[DeTRacted]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

in heavy traffic, when the engine stopped at every halt, and a restart was needed a few seconds later,

I am convinced there has been a slow-down in traffic because of S/S.  At road junctions there is now a longer delay before each car gets moving - so gaps in the traffic which at one time would have been easy to enter are now unusable and the queue builds up..... 

[Escadrille Ecosse]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

I am informed that the car is smart enough to cancel the S/S program if the battery gets too low, which rather spoils the whole idea!

Surely that's better than having the car break down

Got a call a few weeks ago from a friend asking if I would bring my jump leads with me just in case as his car had been acting up and sometimes wouldn't start after being left.

OK, but slightly confused because he has an EV

Apparently there is also a 'normal' 12V battery that drives the vehicle systems with the HV battery doing the power stuff.

Anyway, turned out the (9 month old) car needed a new 12V battery. BUT because of the system integration it's not something you or the AA man can do. Only the dealer.

The car has been with them for six weeks now and isn't scheduled for the battery swap until the end of January 2024. Special.

[Nick Jones]

10 weeks for a 12v battery swap. Which failed after 9 months. Methinks there is more in play here than a dodgy battery……. other suspect parts on back order….. I hope he has a loan car and it’s decent!

[Escadrille Ecosse]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

10 weeks for a 12v battery swap. Which failed after 9 months. Methinks there is more in play here than a dodgy battery……. other suspect parts on back order…..

You would almost like to think so. Unfortunately the garage are saying a duff battery is their best guess. The end of January is when they will dig it out of the park and have a first look to find out what the fault actually is...

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

I hope he has a loan car and it’s decent!

He has, it's not.

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, DeTRacted said:

I am convinced there has been a slow-down in traffic because of S/S.  At road junctions there is now a longer delay before each car gets moving - so gaps in the traffic which at one time would have been easy to enter are now unusable and the queue builds up..... 

Traffic IS heavier, and drivers' ability to conduct their vehicle is worse than ever.   S/S is not a factor, it's because few if any drivers use "anticipation".    Waiting stationary in traffic, one should be out of gear and foot off the brake - how often does the driver in front of you near blind you with their brake lights?  Hand  brake off unless on a slope.   Watch the cars in front, or the traffic lights if you are in front.   The traffic lights the other way.

   Anticipate that you will be able to move, get in gear and feather the clutch.  This allows plenty of time for the S/S to get the engine turning again, so that you are ready to move before the car in front moves off.      But people don't.   They stay in gear with clutch down and brake lights flaring, wearing out their clutch release bearings, and then only react  when the car directly in front moves.     If they have S/S then, yes, it will take them longer to move off, but blame the driver, not the S/S.

John

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

He has, it's not.

Then he’s more patient than I would be. I’d be demanding my money back to get their full attention. These cars are very pricey and depreciate rapidly, so months sat in the garage while you get the use of some punishment trolley instead is unacceptable!

[rogerguzzi]

Hello  All

              Well the Barstewards in!!!!

It took me about 1.5 hours to get it out and about 1/2 to fit the new one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoever designed this postion for the battery should be Hung?(No that is to easy hung up by some Delicate Parts for a week or two or until they Repent?)

The photo's show how it has to come out and it is Bloody heavy! 

I checked all the fluids and guess what they all needed topping up !!! (engine oil on the Bottom of the stick must have put in 1.5lts!)

I have yet to tell her she needs 3 new Tyres(down to wear pads!!)

It look like the Bank of Dad will hake another Hammering(and us Poor Pensioners?)

Roger

[Nick Jones]

Well done, I feel your pain as it looks a bit like the A4. Not completely buried, but the clamp is very awkwardly positioned and putting a huge heavy battery in the middle of the bulkhead doesn’t make for an easy lift….,

[Sprint95m]

Replacement of battery.....?

This will be one of they occasions when you need to mind to have an extra big helping of porridge beforehand

 

 

Ian

Edited December 23, 2023 by Sprint95m

[rogerguzzi]

27 minutes ago, Sprint95m said:

Replacement of battery.....?

This will be one of they occasions when you need to mind to have an extra big helping of porridge beforehand

 

 

Ian

Hello Ian

               This why I like Spitty nothing is difficult to work on compare to Modern rubbish and I recon there is enough wire in the Daughters car to re wire our house!

No wonder they are scraped for eletrics??(if this is progress count me out!)

I think buying a good restored Classic at my age would be better than the modern Crap and Cheaper and forget the pollution bit it would Tons less!

Roger

ps roll on next year Spain trip and Schlumlph later and passes and a bit of sun? in march in Albert Fury porugal(before the Grim Reaper comes knocking!)

Roger and the Memsahib

 

[rogerguzzi]

20 hours ago, Sprint95m said:

Replacement of battery.....?

This will be one of they occasions when you need to mind to have an extra big helping of porridge beforehand

 

 

Ian

Hello Ian

                 I had my porridge what I needed was Popeye's Spinach or similar or some other substance???

I have ordered and paid for 3 new tyres to be fitted on 28th (Budget ones but will still be better than Bald ones and one was 2016 original!!)

We will then feel the Granchildren are a bit safer!!! and its only money!!

Roger and the Memsahib

[John I]

Hope everyone has a great holiday season and finds what they wish for in the presents they receive.

enjoy

less of this

and more of this

 

[zetecspit]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:44 PM, rogerguzzi said:

Hello  All

              Well the Barstewards in!!!!

It took me about 1.5 hours to get it out and about 1/2 to fit the new one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoever designed this postion for the battery should be Hung?(No that is to easy hung up by some Delicate Parts for a week or two or until they Repent?)

The photo's show how it has to come out and it is Bloody heavy! 

I checked all the fluids and guess what they all needed topping up !!! (engine oil on the Bottom of the stick must have put in 1.5lts!)

I have yet to tell her she needs 3 new Tyres(down to wear pads!!)

It look like the Bank of Dad will hake another Hammering(and us Poor Pensioners?)

Roger

 

That is rather similar to when I did a battery for my dear old Dad soem years ago for his C max. 

I took a look, thought I would need some guidance as it was buried. Process started with removal of windscreen wipers..... then the bulkhead trim stuff etc etc. 

 

Gills "new" mx5 (bought as a scrapper off our daughter as she let it run low on oil, so knocks) has a dead battery. We discovered this when we tried putting the windows back up after trying to dry the car out on a rare sunny day. But rather than in the boot like earlier models, this one has the battery in the engine bay, very easily accessable. Dead as a dodo though. A new one will be bought once the engine is fixed, meanwile I can bodge the Dolomite battery in until that car is finished.

Edited December 27, 2023 by zetecspit

[spitfire6]

Hi,
I have never owned a car with a stop-start system. I have driven a handful. I have also co-drived an S/S car The only person I know who doesn't turn it off.
I would put it onto my Triumph if all the switchers were present & the starter motor was OK with this service. It's not going to happen.
The S/S car must have an AGM battery or an EFB battery if it's under the bonnet & it can left straight out.
My car takes less than 1Whr to start. That's a lot of starts on a modern car, probably 100 starts before the battery could do with a charge. The modern car knows the energy of the battery & the energy direction. The S/S will be disabled if it thinks the battery could be damaged.
I have been lucky with an AGM for my Triumph.
Cheers,
Iain.

 

[thebrookster]

I'm thinking I might need to do some pre-emptive research on this at some point.

My new (to me) truck has this feature, and whilst it seems to function well enough, I am concerned about how long a battery lasts when it has to constantly start a 3.2L diesel engine!

Edited April 5 by thebrookster

[JohnD]

Phil,

As Iain says above, a modern with stop/start will monitor the state of the battery and if it is weakened will disable the S/S.   Might be seen as an additional monitor of the state of an old battery!     The system is a fuel saver and a pollution minimiser, for vehicles that spend time in slow moving traffic.   The Wiki claims that this saving can be as much as 10%!

But in a part of the world such as yours, where a flock of sheep counts as a traffic jam, your truck will A/ never use it and B/ might as well not have it!   Turn it off!   But if you ever drive up to those bright city lights for a night out, you might turn it on again!

John

[thebrookster]

11 minutes ago, JohnD said:

But in a part of the world such as yours, where a flock of sheep counts as a traffic jam, your truck will A/ never use it and B/ might as well not have it!

Me suspects you have grossly underestimated the power of tourism, John! The road in front of my house is the A82, and it is not uncommon to see 10 miles plus queues of traffic in front of me. And that's just the usual holiday traffic, if you are unlucky enough to be behind an accident the queues can be even longer than that!

No such luck regarding nights out however, they remain firmly the purview of trains and taxis. Up here in Scotlandshire just the smell of a beer is enough to have you over the limit!