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Hello All

              I thought I would add some of this stuff to Spitty's fuel this winter as it must all be E10 by now?

So looking for a bargin(Tight a*rse) i have bought some of this as their Synthetic oil has been ok in Spitty this year (5,500+ miles ) and oil pressure is still good when hot!

2x250ml Mannol Ester Petrol Ethanol Additive Stabiliser E10 E15 Fuel Economy | eBay

I hope it does the job but it looks to good to be true?

Still it may make Spitty run better next year when I add it to the fuel?

Roger

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23 minutes ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello All

              I thought I would add some of this stuff to Spitty's fuel this winter as it must all be E10 by now?

So looking for a bargin(Tight a*rse) i have bought some of this as their Synthetic oil has been ok in Spitty this year (5,500+ miles ) and oil pressure is still good when hot!

2x250ml Mannol Ester Petrol Ethanol Additive Stabiliser E10 E15 Fuel Economy | eBay

I hope it does the job but it looks to good to be true?

Still it may make Spitty run better next year when I add it to the fuel?

Roger

I just had a look. But it isn't clear about what that additive actualluy does, except lubricate the fuel system. I am wondering if it does help with the problems ethanol can cause . (I have a prewar singer so need something for that, and possibly my Vitesse 1600, though I am intending to have some headwork done on that at some point)

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Hello Nick

                I have done that so what the Hell I will put a dose in and run for 15mins which will stir it all up with the return to the tank!

Plus it was cheap and i might get even more MPG next year ?

We are looking at Spain bookings now(ferry booked) you have to go for it we had a christmas card from old friends and she told us Dave had had a mild stroke!!

So that means he can not drive or ride his Motocycles for at least 6 months !!!!!!!!!!!!!! and only a touch older than me!

So I say do it while you can before the Grim Reaper comes knocking

These daft buggers are going down to Gibraltar again and seeing more castles etc while we can!

Plus Spitty is going to live with her pebble dash finish and let us spend the insurance money on travel and Wine(at 78 how long have I got at this level?)

plus the kids will have enough unless we go into care(No No No) 

sorry about the morbid bit

Roger and the long suffering Memsahib(but she does like the Daft excursions we we do over Dams etc(back to no pockets in Shrouds)

sorry about the ramble Blame the Saturday Vino Again

Rogers

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I have used this millers vspe plus for years - it’s what my dad used in all sorts of vintage and classics so has proved itself over very many years.
https://www.frost.co.uk/millers-vsp-e-power-plus-multi-shot-500ml/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_4OIjbWEgwMVEMftCh2F4Qj9EAQYBiABEgLkivD_BwE

available from various sources and prices this is the big multi shot bottle.

but I confess to not using it for the last 2 seasons on the “new” engine as the valve seats have been done. But I wonder if it’s worth continuing for the octane bootstrap and ethanol benefits ?

I hear tooth things about the valve master version too.

but I think there are dedicated additives to be used when laying  a vehicle up for a few months that may be better suited.

i think it could be cheaper than filling the tank with my preferred V power only to find it’s “gone off” over a few months of sitting.

but this thread has made me decide to add some millers vspe to what’s left in the tank as I’m ashamed to say the tr hasn’t moved for a couple of months.

 

 

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My usual rite in the Springtime, when getting the 'BlueRacer' (TR4) out of hibernation, is to spend a couple of hours. cranking, swearing, new plugs, clean float chamber,

squirt of Start U Bast*** , more swearing and then she starts..

So this year for the first time I have topped the tank up and used Sta-Bil.  

This should stabilise the effects of the Ethanol.

 

I'll report back in the Spring.

 

Roger

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Ever since I started building my engines with as high compression as I could with 99 octane, I put some of this stuff in the tank at season's end.     Or I have done since spring starting found a loud knock, that went away as soon as I filled up with fresh fuel.   

The contents of a stabiliser seem to vary by manufacturer, but a typical list culled from Hazard sheets incudes:

"Distillates" - Alkanes (10-13 carbon), Hexanol (6 carbon), naphtha.
toluene, benzene or  methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (octane raisers)                                                                                                                                              phenylenediamine (anti-'gumming' agent)

but I doubt that short list is comprehensive

The websites of the makers of stabilisers are completely opaque as to how they work (or if they do!). apart from waffle about "gums", but from my experience above, I think that modern fuel loses some of the octane raising additives that replace tetra-ethyl lead.     The above contents of a stabiliser add octane raisers, and some long chain hydrocarbons, that may be chosen to less susceptible to oxidation in stored fuel to produce "gums" that the last inhibits.
 

This has to be a subject for the Common Room of Sideways University!  And members of the Department of Chemistry (Petroleum Technology).   Anyone in?

John

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Hello All

                I have put dose in the tank and will run it tomorrow to mix it up (think it maybe the wrong stuff!)

But I have had another thought I have changed Spitty tank vent from through the filler cap to a pipe to the rear of the car!

So I think I will seal this breather then no air/moisture can get in Etc and I do not think I will have to worry about expansion in a cold garge in the Winter!

Roger

ps thoughts? or am I just a daft old Bugger?

Still we are going to book a break to Albert fury Porugal at the start of march for a bit of temperate weather and away from what ever happens here!

I recon it will be about £1000 for the week including a couple of trip and self catering(which we like) so about the same as Spain £1000 a week for 2 which in these times seems reasonable?

Roger and the Happy Memsahib

DSC02281.JPG

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Esso synergy supreme+ 99 should be 0 ethanol.  This is what I've been using ever since the experience of my SU needles went green and the jets stuck after sitting for a couple of weeks.

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol.

Quote:

"Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation."

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So from my days working on the refinery loading terminals, storage and pipelines and talking to the process engineers about the stuff I had to worry about leaking out, poisoning, gassing, going on fire or exploding.... :blink:

Modern refineries don't produce much straight cut gasolines, so the petrol at the pump is made up of a blend of a whole range of hydrocarbons, most being produced by cracking longer chain hydrocarbons (or reforming shorter chain ones) depending on the feedstock streams - which nowadays are allsorts.

However short chain HCs (C4+ light ends and condensates) are nicely volatile for combustion, have good anti-knock properties, are soluble in gasolines AND are relatively cheap because they are a byproduct of the initial gas separation process for crude oil. So these get blended into the fuel to achieve the necessary properties of your petrol, regular and super.

However, just like the CO2 in your 'ginger' (fizzy drinks) left long enough with a free surface the shorter chain molecules will evaporate preferentially leaving the stuff behind short on the light ends needed to get the engine to fire from cold come the spring.

5 hours ago, egret said:

"Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland)

Fabulous quote from Esso. They presumably consider the South East to be most of 'everywhere'. :wacko:

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Morning chaps, and apologies for the ignorant question, but.........

We're scheduled to change to E10 on 1st Jan on all 95-oct supplies in PL. 98-oct will stay as E5. I sometimes put 95 in the TR, depending on how much grief the CFO has given me recently about the cost of fuel, etc.

So, given that the TR has hardened exhaust valves and R9-grade flexible fuel lines, is the risk of E10 limited to accelerated fuel tank corrosion during the lay-up whilst there's salt on t'roads?

Paul

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I had issues with my carbs gumming up and what looked like the brass corroding.  See photo of weird green corroded situation.  I'm not 100% certain this was due to ethanol, or water absorbed by it, in the fuel.  But the issues seem to have gone away by using the premium 0 ethanol stuff.  I had to remove and clean all moving areas of the carburettors which came into contact with petrol, and this was after only a couple of weeks.  Honestly not a huge job, but given that I don't drive it regularly I've just accepted the higher cost of fuel as the price to pay for not having a half hour tinker every time I want to drive!

20220723_150322.jpg

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"Weird green corrosion"????  On  brass?

On my engine test rig I have a 5L fuel can as the tank.    I used a piece of tube from the cut-offs bin as a dip tube to take fuel out to the pump, but after a while the thing wouldn't start.  Investigation  found no fuel getting to carbs, so starting at the beginning, I found this:

Enginerig-corrosiononfuelpickup.JPG.1cf1689901e075ff1c296ffdb393d4e4.JPG

The dip tube was BLOCKED with green stuff!     A change to a steel tube solved the problem, and after flushing through the system, all was well.   I presume I first used a length of copper, or copper containing tube, brake line or central heating pipe.  The green stuff being verdegris, copper carbonate.

The rig doesn't get used every day, and I run it on the same stuff I do the lawnmower, ordinary not-99-octane fuel.   What was causing this?    The alcohol in lesser fuels might absorb water, but copper barely reacts with water - else it wouldn't be used for domestic piping.    Atmospheric oxygen causes a dark brown black coating, while the verdegris comes from CO2, usually when combined with an acid, hence statues go green in acid rain.  But fuel doesn't contain acid!   Does it? 

An article on corrosion in fuel storage tanks ( https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/47919  ) found, for biodiesel:

"If water is present in the biodiesel, processes may take place which result in its degradation. The presence of water leads to hydrolysis of esters and, eventually, to the formation of free fatty acids and glycerol. Each of the oxides formed in reactions 1 and 2 may react with fatty acids, forming organic salts (reactions 3 and 4) and water, which accelerates corrosion.

2CuO + 4R’COOH → 2Cu(R’COO)2+ 2H2O

Cu2O + 2R’COOH → 2Cu(R’COO) + H2O"

Cu(R'COO) is, of course Copper carboxylate with the 'R' representing an organic radical.  Cu Carboxylate is as green as verdegris!   So the water DOES cause the production of acids, fatty acids (R'COOH)!  In biodiesel, anyway, and I guess in petrol.

I'm not going to try, putting a 'fuel stabiliser' in my engine rig tank, and replacing that copper tube.  But I might set up an  experiment with some copper in jars with and without the additive.    Tell you the result later!

John

PS the glycerol do doubt forms the "gums".   The picture becomes clearer!

Edited by JohnD
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On 12/14/2023 at 8:44 AM, PaulAA said:

Morning chaps, and apologies for the ignorant question, but.........

We're scheduled to change to E10 on 1st Jan on all 95-oct supplies in PL. 98-oct will stay as E5. I sometimes put 95 in the TR, depending on how much grief the CFO has given me recently about the cost of fuel, etc.

So, given that the TR has hardened exhaust valves and R9-grade flexible fuel lines, is the risk of E10 limited to accelerated fuel tank corrosion during the lay-up whilst there's salt on t'roads?

Paul

It’s a difficult one. Lots of variables and lots of conflicting information.

First point. For both E5 and E10, the ethanol content is specified only as the maximum value. So, in the UK at least, actual content can be anywhere between zero and that maximum. From what I’ve read though,  E10/95 will always have some ethanol while a few of the higher octane E5s may be zero in some regions at least.  In the early days of E10 I did some basic testing and never got above 4%.  That said, I have had a few tankfuls since that I’ve wondered about and meant to sample (but never actually did it) as the car (Vitesse) immediately ran less well after a fill up.

Actual ill effects?  Ethanol is definitely bad for certain rubbers and the more of it present, the bigger the problem.  Older fuel hoses tended to be NBR (nitrile based) which doesn’t really like ethanol though often the top quality OEM stuff does well enough. The obvious choice for neat ethanol is EPDM (as also used in braking systems), but that hates hydrocarbons, so you have to go to the fluoro-elastomers such as Viton to cover the whole witches brew.

Cohline 2240 has been working just fine for me for several years now. Beware the fake SAE J30 R9 hose for sale on eBay and by AFS in Kent. It cracks up after 6 months.  One sign of unsuitable hose from first installation is a persistent stench of fuel. You can find no leaks (wet ones anyway), but if you sniff the hose itself, it reeks, because it’s not fully impermeable to the fuel. Same comments apply to O-rings and seals. Bottom line - use Viton or better.

As regards metals corrosion, my understanding is that ethanol itself is not a problem, but what is a problem is ethanol being miscible with both water and fuel and somewhat hygroscopic, so increasing the risk of water in the fuel. The presence of water may allow further interesting chemistry resulting in weak organic acids, which certainly do lead to corrosion, especially in yellow metals and zinc alloys.

Best way around this is to buy fuel fresh from high-turnover stations and keep your tank full to minimise condensation space. There are additives that claim to reduce/eliminate the problem. I’ve not tried them. Touch wood (!) I’ve had no issues with cars (apart from hose problems now overcome) or garden machinery - and that’s running mostly 95 E10 from supermarkets. Maybe just luck…

A further related remark. One of the ironies of E fuel is that although the ethanol itself isn’t especially volatile, it makes some of the other more volatile components more keen to escape the mix, increasing the vapour pressure of the fuel. The two practical effects are that fuel vapourisation and cavitation become more of a problem and also that the fuel goes stale pretty quickly.

Bottom line. Keep an eye on your fuel hoses, change to a decent E-resistant type as needed. Keep your tanks topped up with fresh fuel and keep using your cars regularly. Run your garden machinery out of fuel before leaving it standing.

 

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1 hour ago, PaulAA said:

I wonder if that might be the source of the stench of fuel in the Jag's boot...

Certainly a possibility. My first encounter with the problem was when I converted the PI to EFI and renewed hoses in the boot - and it reeked, though no apparent leaks. You’ll have to sniff the hoses…. All of them. Rather a complex setup on those iirc. Otherwise I’d be looking for missing/misplaced breathers.

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2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Certainly a possibility. My first encounter with the problem was when I converted the PI to EFI and renewed hoses in the boot - and it reeked, though no apparent leaks. You’ll have to sniff the hoses…. All of them. Rather a complex setup on those iirc. Otherwise I’d be looking for missing/misplaced breathers.

Hello All

                I had just the same with so called good hose from Fleabay  but Gates has been good and worth the money(sometimes?)

We all learn by our mistakes?

Roger

ps Spain booked again but now planing a trip to the Schlumph collection and the French Railway museum with a gang of old Farts like me!(well some a bit younger)

plus thet want to do the Stelvio Pass (we did it on a Moto Guzzi 750 Breva about 15 years ago!)

Plus I want to do the Gotthard pass and maybe others if I can talk them in to it!!! (I will do my best as We love mountain passes 17 on the Pyrenees trip!)

Roger and the long suffering(but likes it really)Memsahib

pps a week booked in Albert Fury Portugal in March for a bit of warmish and relaxing holiday

ppps IT looks lot but at my age I have to go for it as the Grim Reaper will be Knoking any day then its Sh*t Street!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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23 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

 

ps Spain booked again but now planing a trip to the Schlumph collection and the French Railway museum with a gang of old Farts like me!(well some a bit younger)

 

The Schlumpf museum sell a fantastic Triumph keyring, or did. I bought one and used it for years, until I lost the keys and ring. Most upsetting. 

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12 hours ago, zetecspit said:

The Schlumpf museum sell a fantastic Triumph keyring, or did. I bought one and used it for years, until I lost the keys and ring. Most upsetting. 

Hello

     I Will have to remember that and buy one.

The Memsahib says I should not have all these Mad ideas I say we are a Long time Dead!

Roger

Ps they all want to do more Mountain Passes and there is plenty to choose from!

PpsI must remember to tell the TR6's to bring spare spark plugs ha ha and see if I can work out what I have set wrong on Spitty for the altitude adjustments as it seems to go lean at the moment?

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