Gearbox Rebuild

[thebrookster]

Well, back at home, and time to start tackling the job list.

First up, rebuild the gearbox that came with the Herald Estate ready for fitting. Investigation shows it is a 3-Rail 4-Syncro box from a Toledo, and initial inspection suggests in pretty decent nick!

Started removing the big bits on the outside bench, which had to be cleared. Someone had left a rag on the bench, which I used to wipe down. Until I felt a sudden jab, and found this:

Now departed this world, unsurprisingly.

Box up:

And dismantled to come inside:

And dismantled as far as I could take it, due to my brass drifts having made a timely disappearance............

Phil

[Nick Jones]

Welcome back to the septic isle.....

Gearbox looks ok so far. You haven’t reached the danger areas yet though. Mainshaft tip and layshaft...... How much wiggle in the input shaft tip?

Good luck (4 cylinder car so you could be ok)

[JohnD]

What do sailors rest on - surely not laurels, and you're not resting anyway!

Glad you've made it back.   Enjoy your leave!

JOhn

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Philip

                   How do you get away with dismantling things on top of the washing machine? plus it does not look as good as a good bench!

Nick that is the tip I think?  and it looks ok!

Roger

ps off out tomorrow on what is probably the last jolly/run with a few friends from the TSSC !

Me and the Memsahib will go out but I will not organise any more group runs this year!

We have bought a smallish freezer to go with the fridge/freezer so we will not have to mix with Great unwashed to much until there is a vaccine that gives some protection and been buying/stockpiling for that last few weeks as we guessed this would happen!

Still more time to mess with old Triumphs?

Not posted much lately as the Memsahib has had me busy with the paint brush etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I have questions to be answered by you learned crew!

 

[thebrookster]

Well, my new drifts arrived, and gearbox now disassembled.

@Nick Jones this is a video of the input shaft fitted to the main shaft, is this a normal/good/bad amount of wobble??

Also, got the casing cleaned out and pressure washed. Found the downside to not being on a ship, no compressed air supply! So the Aga has been pressed into use.......

Looks like I have another job to add to the list, clean the top of the Aga! Need to shut it off for that, so better do it soon lol before the weather gets too cold 

Phil

[thebrookster]

And a load of photos of all the various components. Notably, Layshaft looks excellent (I can't feel the markings with a finger nail).

If anyone spots anything of concern, let me know, after all this is my first time rebuilding a gearbox so I will bow down to superior experience and knowledge!

Phil

[Nick Jones]

Wobble is moot now you have it in bits. Condition of the mainshaft tip and the corresponding inner surface of the input shaft are key things.

From the pic, the tip looks ok....... This usually means the input shaft bore is too. Likewise on the layshaft.

Looks like you’ve got lucky 

[thebrookster]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Wobble is moot now you have it in bits.

Yeah, that occured to me just after I took it to bits.....

The tip seems acceptable, it is not perfect by any means but doesn't appear to have any major wear to it. Given that it will be going into a car that isn't planned to have any performance mods done to it other than twin HS2's, I figured it should be fine.

Just awaiting the rebuild kit from Canleys.

It is encouraging to see that the syncros appear to be good. They all seem to bite well, I think I get another set with the kit so will see what works best. My understanding is the new ones are better these days than previously, anyone else had any experience with them recently?

[Nick Jones]

I think I bought one when I did the Spit box. It was ok. I usually put the ex 4th gear one on second as it, or 1st tend to be the least knackered. But what you are doing, seeing how they grip the cones on the gears is an important check. The best ones almost squeak. 

 

 

 

[thebrookster]

Quick question, to convert a 3-rail box from column od control to gearstick control, what bits would I require?

We have a gearstick, will it fit to the remote housing on the 3 rail box? A quick look at photos suggests it might, but I don't have the gearstick here so can't try it!

Cheers,

Phil

[Nick Jones]

Just the hollow gearstick, knob, knob fixings, switch, switch cover (note various different ones to reflect the difference in reverse gear position) and relevant wiring.  You may well have to make something if you want to retain the original Herald shape as there never was a factory Herald or Vitesse with OD gearknob.

[zetecspit]

Or try one of these.I have one on my Toledo, reliable, just fits on existing gearstick. And I really like the "action". Just get one with the correct thread.

[GT6MK3]

Link

https://www.bighealey.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=gear knob

[thebrookster]

Cool, I'll pass the idea onwards!

I'm just the spanner monkey on this one, the gearbox is destined for the Team Torpedo Herald Estate so they have the final say.

Phil

[rogerguzzi]

On 10/1/2020 at 8:52 PM, thebrookster said:

Yeah, that occured to me just after I took it to bits.....

The tip seems acceptable, it is not perfect by any means but doesn't appear to have any major wear to it. Given that it will be going into a car that isn't planned to have any performance mods done to it other than twin HS2's, I figured it should be fine.

Just awaiting the rebuild kit from Canleys.

It is encouraging to see that the syncros appear to be good. They all seem to bite well, I think I get another set with the kit so will see what works best. My understanding is the new ones are better these days than previously, anyone else had any experience with them recently?

Hello Phil

                I fitted a longer needle bearing in there (I think 19mm long not the is it 13 or 14mm as fitted)

I swopped the spacers around I think so non at bottom of hole and the thin? one next to the splined shaft.

I did a write up somewhere but I can not find it!

It has done  6500miles.

Synchro rings I measure them on the cones and went by the numbers in my old TR2 manual which says.

Gap under them 0.035" to 0.040" new and 0.005" to 0.010" less when run in

Roger

[thebrookster]

2 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello Phil

                I fitted a longer needle bearing in there (I think 19mm long not the is it 13 or 14mm as fitted)

I swopped the spacers around I think so non at bottom of hole and the thin? one next to the splined shaft.

I did a write up somewhere but I can not find it!

It has done  6500miles.

Synchro rings I measure them on the cones and went by the numbers in my old TR2 manual which says.

Gap under them 0.035" to 0.040" new and 0.005" to 0.010" less when run in

Roger

Was meaning to ask about that, how the flippin heck do I remove the needle bearing??

This gearbox will go back with standard I think, unless I can easily buy the longer bearing soonish as my engine crane is wanted in Cumbria, so not a lot of time to get the box rebuilt and fitted!

Phil

[JumpingFrog]

14 hours ago, thebrookster said:

Was meaning to ask about that, how the flippin heck do I remove the needle bearing??

The press fit spigot bearing is best removed by destroying it, the cage is quite brittle so hammer and a small chisel or an old screwdriver is the best way.

 

[thebrookster]

33 minutes ago, JumpingFrog said:

The press fit spigot bearing is best removed by destroying it, the cage is quite brittle so hammer and a small chisel or an old screwdriver is the best way.

 

Awesome, I like destructive methods 

Will get on that later, today is mostly heavy lifting.......

Phil

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Good to see you back Phil. Must be a shock to stand on solid ground again!

That gearbox looks in remarkably good nick!

On 10/5/2020 at 12:01 PM, thebrookster said:

Quick question, to convert a 3-rail box from column od control to gearstick control, what bits would I require?

We have a gearstick, will it fit to the remote housing on the 3 rail box? A quick look at photos suggests it might, but I don't have the gearstick here so can't try it!

My only comment on this having used both is that the gearstick control is not an improvement. But each to their own

[thebrookster]

14 minutes ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Good to see you back Phil. Must be a shock to stand on solid ground again!

That gearbox looks in remarkably good nick!

My only comment on this having used both is that the gearstick control is not an improvement. But each to their own

Cheers Colin, yeah the ground is finally starting to stay still lol.

Yeah, the only bit on the box that is out of spec is the layshaft endfloat, so some new thrust washers needed.

Gearstick control idea is cancelled as of last night, team torpedo have decided to go with the column control (this came with the gearbox, lucky days )

Phil

[Nick Jones]

14 minutes ago, thebrookster said:

team torpedo have decided to go with the column control

Right decision I reckon.

[PeteStupps]

18 hours ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

My only comment on this having used both is that the gearstick control is not an improvement. But each to their own

 

17 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Right decision I reckon.

These are interesting comments - either of you care to expand a bit? 

I had assumed the gearknob position would be more ergonomic and thought most people preferred it. I've only had OD on a dash-mounted switch (MGB GT), which I found a bit awkward if you wanted to disengage OD and shift in swift succession. OD switch was to the right of the steering wheel, similar to the Triumph column stalk.

[Escadrille Ecosse]

Personally I have found that you almost never need to do a gear and OD change at the same time.

If driving on fast A or B roads all you generally need to do is change between 4th and 4-OD to maintain good progress.

On narrow B roads or single track roads then its 3rd and 3-OD.

For overtaking you plan ahead. If a bit of poke for acceleration is required, change to 3-OD (same as 4th) and then flick the OD off as soon as you're clear to pass and back on to keep in the rev range as you continue to accelerate. Far faster change than the manual gears. Then sort the gears out at your leisure when the road is clear/safe.

Column mount switch on the Spitfire is in a perfect position to flick without taking either hand off the steering wheel.

Added benefit is that the switch wires don't chafe and break entailing a partial dismantle of the interior to get your OD working again

Column switch looks nicer too in my opinion

[Nick Jones]

Basically as he says. Strangely, I’ve always had gearstick switches when I’ve had overdrive, mostly because it was years ago and they were much easier to find than the column ones.  I’ve never much liked the over-chunky knob and often rather stiff sliding switch and the wiring is frequently troublesome. My Herald had a home made wooden knob and mini rocker switch which I found much nicer to use though the wiring issues were the same.

For many years I’ve not had overdrive, then I had the PI and now the GT6, both with gear lever switches (as original). Once again I find myself not really liking the arrangement.  Perhaps a momentary button on the steering wheel and a logic box for semi-tiptronic?

[PeteStupps]

Thanks gents, that's fairly comprehensive! If I ever get round to collecting all the bits for my OD conversion I'll be sticking with the column switch. Apart from anything I like the original 'black ball' gearknob too much to change it!