Spit131 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Is a long term AWOL , now old boy , with a shamefully neglected Fiat TC powered Spitfire project allowed to ask for advice from the clever boys , on a hopefully hot , second , alternative ( Corona inspired ) Fiat engine build PLEASE ? MATT SE LONDON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Hey, Matt's alive! Not sure how much we know about Fiat engines but probably happy to give our opinions anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 3, 2020 Author Share Posted August 3, 2020 Thank you Nick . Hello to all , I will not waste time giving excuses for the stagnation but can say that Debra and myself are looking to move before long , hopefully to somewhere including a double garage giving me room to actually start working back on the car ( If Corona or some other old boy syndrome does not strike first ) . So , until a lottery win or the double garage materialised , I decided to gather parts for a new engine build , just as a distraction really . This resulted in my tiny garage now holding four Fiat engines/blocks , and my kitchen , sitting room and stair case numerous other parts including ten further Fiat/Lancia heads some 8v some 16v . I only want to end up with one extra engine , so two engines/blocks and more could then be sold . Some will not be aware but my current neglected , NEVER RUN engine is 1593 131 TC Volumex , fully GC worked , dry sumped , with Omex 200 ( but engine embarrassingly now in need of a basic belt change/overhaul ) . I would always keep this engine but thought having a 2.0 FI version would give a markedly alternative spare engine . The build vehicle , also unfinished , a 1500 Spitfire with stripped lightweight shell , fg doors , fg boot , fg boot , full cage , Quaife type 9 box , Tilton two pack cerametalic clutch , Subaru diff with Kazz or Quaife LSD , MGF rear hubs/callipers , Caterham fronts . 7”/6” billet Superlite wheels , fg targa top , ally tanks /rad /seats etc . I am hoping that from the new selection of parts accumulated I may have most of the bits I would need for this further build but my knowledge still is not fully up to some decisions regarding the skilled matching of suitable parts . It is late now so tomorrow I will attempt to list details and load pics of the most likely candidates including a new Fiat 124 short block and a fully worked extra big valve Fiat 130TC Abarth head and a pair of twin ATR 45mm throttle bodies . I will be grateful for input . Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiTurbo228 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Very interesting indeed! I've come across Guy Croft in my research around my X1/9. He mostly works on the bigger twincam, but has done some great work on the little SOHC. What rear suspension setup will you be using? Swing axles or rotoflex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Good evening , Hi Biturbo , You are clearly an experienced collector/restorer looking at your threads , impressive . I had some MGF hubs reworked to match the Triumph GT6 hub dimensions , also some odd looking lower arms welded with twin chassis legs out of some heavy duty US threaded suspension tube welded into a couple of lengths of 50?mm ally tube I had in the garage but I will get these remade in a more conventional manor or I will get endlessly teased by racer John who referred to them as ‘ submarines ‘ . You can find pics on an old link on here in readers cars . I will be getting shafts made to link the Subaru inner lobros to the MGF CVs . Unless something better is put forward of course . M I need to look at the photo posting rules so I can upload . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Speaking of GC , very talented man but understandably after years of ‘ hands on ‘ lately he withdrew from ‘ the running ‘ of his site and although a member was looking to take it over with his blessing it seems to have stalled and very little is happening , one reason I am petering all here ! In fact I have been shocked at how many sites are no longer as ‘ in the good old days ‘ . Dont ever give in Sideways . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Hi , I can see it may take a while ( few days ) to compile this so it might be worth ignoring it until I have compiled the majority of parts /info . I was forgetting the disadvantages of not being very IT savvy ! OK , I’ll start with the blocks . 1) GC Volumex 1585 131 currently sitting in spit 2) complete Fiat 1592 engine and box which looks in reasonable condition but not 2.0 so will possibly be sold on . 3) Complete , supposedly ready to run rebuilt Fiat 130 TC Abarth engine minus carbs . This was purchased through Ebay - - - - often questionable . The guy who dropped it off one evening seemed knowledgable and professional although understandably having come a long way was in a hurry to get back on the road . Stupidly I forgot to ask the most relevant question regarding any crank grinding ! However , he had said that he would email a build sheet so I was not too worried , but , it never showed despite two text reminders , worrying . The block has been rebored from original 84mm to 84.6 . No problem there if it’s been done well . However to my knowledge only the 2.0 Fiat/Lancia cranks were hardened so grinding is not recommended ( banned by GC ) all though some say it can then be re-hardened others say there are reasons this does not work well . The thing is it seems odd that anyone knowledgeable would put all that time and money into a rebuild leaving the crank useless . Without stripping this ‘ ready to run ‘ engine too far how can I confirm the situation please ? Oh , I made an offer of £1600.00 on this which I was surprised he accepted , also puts doubts in my mind but fingers crossed . add picture 4) The doubts about no 3 persuaded me to grab a rare opportunity to purchase an original 2.0 Fiat 124 short block meaning I had something to work with if no 3 was not as good as it looked well , I might be impressed with myself ( and your system ! ) if this loads OK first attempt . p.s your donate system does not appear to be working or is that just me ? I will continue tomorrow . M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 5, 2020 Author Share Posted August 5, 2020 (edited) Good morning , This is the worked head that I would like to use if it proved good . I will drop this off soon to have its volumes measured , flow tested etc . it is a reverse port head so slight complication if swapping between this and the GC lump . The valves are oversize so may be non Fiat/Lancia . I do not know if this has any bearing on the use of twin springs on the inlet and singles on the exhaust . I have new sets of twin springs by both Abarth and Isky but perhaps the springs he has used are for a reason perhaps to match the larger valves of valve keepers ? Standard F/L big valves are 43.5/36 . Apart from this head I have 2 16v Lancia Thema heads with standard valves and springs and another Volumex big 8 valve head . The 16v are pretty efficient as are but the VX would need the expense of porting , flowing etc . I will hopefully continue in my lunch break . Edited August 5, 2020 by Spit131 Mistakenly added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiTurbo228 Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Haha experienced yes, but we're yet to find out if I'm successful Ah I think I remember those! Big longitudinal tube with horizontal tubes welded to them picking up on the suspension points? I have some (currently untested) theories about suspension location for rotoflex setups and roll centre height/jacking forces. If you remember Marcus' lower wishbones that mount underneath the chassis using cut-down radius arms, those are a pretty good compromise between a good suspension geometry and avoiding hacking up the chassis like I have! :S One of the Metro/Rover 100 K-Series driveshafts (the short one) is the right length and correct splines to fit between a Subaru inner CV and the MGF outer one. I think it was @JohnD's remarkable discovery (or am I doing @Nick Jones a disservice?). Save you getting custom ones cut. Real shame to hear that Guy Croft's forum seems to be stalling at the moment. It's a real wealth of information available to everyone, which is something that's at real risk of disappearing with the current movement towards the Facebook/Instagram type of interaction. It's got no permanence to it, with disjointed posts disappearing into the ether over time. Youtube is better, but biases towards a small number of people as it's such an effort to do the video side of things. I don't think the requirement for paid membership to post is doing the GC forum any favours though. It's (intentionally) offputting to people starting out, which limits the pool of conversations. Good for making sure you get quality conversation, not so great in the context of migration from forums to other forms of social media. You've got a wealth of engines to choose from there! Not surprised the choice is tricky No clever ideas for checking the hardness of the crank, or whether it's been reground I'm afraid. Short of flipping it upside-down, whipping the sump and one of the big ends off and measuring it against factory specs. Probably not too tricky to do though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Not my discovery, and I would defer to Nick, with pleasure. Excellent in use though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiTurbo228 Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Drat I know it was one of you two! Thanks for the correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Wasn’t I...... I think it’s a discovery that’s been made independently by at least 2 or 3 folks around the world over a period of years, who happened to have the desire and parts on hand to check. Think Steve JM may be one? There are certainly others. In theory I have the parts on hand to check.... in practice all the R100 shafts I have are attached to working cars. Should also mention that not all Subaru shafts have the same joints, so disappointment is possible..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 (edited) How do you find out these things, Nick? ndIt's like the Bad Obsession boyos, "We used an XYZ bobhanger ... because it fitted!" To a Nissan transmission, in a Mini - who would have thought it? Do they spend long winter evenings going through catalogues? But those never tell you the length of the splines on a bobhanger! Just that it will fit the original XYZ Fizzmaster. They're psychic! Edited August 5, 2020 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetecspit Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Nick Jones said: Wasn’t I...... I think it’s a discovery that’s been made independently by at least 2 or 3 folks around the world over a period of years, who happened to have the desire and parts on hand to check. Think Steve JM may be one? There are certainly others. In theory I have the parts on hand to check.... in practice all the R100 shafts I have are attached to working cars. Should also mention that not all Subaru shafts have the same joints, so disappointment is possible..... I have the rover shafts and subaru diff. OPnce I had got it to work I stumbled across others that had already discovered the same thing. I also have 2 types of subaru diff, the one that uses a stepped spline on the CV, and the other that doesn't (these have a slightly bigger chamfer) The opposite side to the stepped CV fits a "unique" CV, .try to use one from the other type and it won't fit. (I was sold a "pair" of shafts, turns out a stepped one, which I needed, and the other type but of course, only discovered about a year later. Grrr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 5, 2020 Author Share Posted August 5, 2020 From what I remember the stepped ones were for one of the mechanical LSD’s . But of course that was many moons ago . I do know Quaife do two LSDs for two types of 160 so be careful if you order , most important thing is to take play doh moulds of the internal splines of the diff/LSD and compare them with your shafts splines before fitting as you may be shocked how little spline meets if you get it wrong ! And avoid using circlips on shafts until you are certain they are correct otherwise you might find a shaft permanently stuck in your diff where the sun don’t shine ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 Morning all , Some induction/fuel bits . ATR 45mm throttle bodies . piper socks , which I might use as plenums fed with two 35ish mm fed with tubes split from Apollo cold air feed . So Apollo at front of bay , it’s flexi splits into two smaller flexis each feeding one of the two socks . Space saving . Webcon 45mm manifold , Sytec fuel pump , Sytec fuel regulator , Sytec filter , Bosch injectors , Ehhine bay swirl tank which will be fed by red tops in boot . All compatible with -6 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkshire_spam Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 I have nothing useful to add beyond "phwooar, shiny performance parts!" That lancia head (in particular) is a thing of beauty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 Yes , lovely receiving packages but the one thing you can not order on line is the years of experience needed to ensure you are ordering appropriate parts or the skills needed to fettle them before assembly ! Thank goodness there are some VERY KIND people out there willing to share their knowledge . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 I have been chasing up an order for an Omex 600 through Burtons today after weeks of going back and forth between the two of them to ensure the race loom ends are correct for purpose . Was meant to receive a call back from Omex sales this afternoon but looks like the challenge will continue tomorrow ! This is the MSD coil pack and leads I hope will work chosen as used on similar Ford set ups . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 Sorry if this seems showy , that is not the intention . You can not imagine how frustrating it is to watch summers come and go with your prize possession stuck in the garage ! Until we secure a little space , getting the car finished is not going to happen . If I handed it to a professional firm they would be likely to charge 25,000 + to finish the car at £90.00 per hour plus parts so as I was very lucky to receive a bit of cash from a very generous relative I thought whilst in lockdown I would gather bits to create my own alternative power plant .At lest that keeps the project going for now . so , more ‘ shiny bit ‘ . This lot came from Allison’s automotive in the states . Apart from GC most decent F/L suppliers are either in the US or Italy . Firstly some high dome 7mm forged pistons and rings . These are for the new 124 block and looking on GC site for sizing I learned something new about the lettering stamped on the bottom of the block to indicate exact sizing of what should be 84mm . Allison’s have passed on this information to the manufacturers so hopefully they should be good to go bar some honing to the bores . These were marked CCDC . C being 83.95-83.96 D being 83.96-83.97 . This is an Allison’s standard lightweight flywheel in case . Allison’s wider 1” cam wheels , Als ally crankshaft pulley , Als head bolts , Als guides , one set of ALS cams which may or may not be appropriate , Now this is where I currently don’t have the experience all though I am reading and watching YouTubes so it is starting to make sense . I have other cams but not from ALS . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetecspit Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 7 hours ago, Spit131 said: Morning all , Some induction/fuel bits . ATR 45mm throttle bodies . piper socks , which I might use as plenums fed with two 35ish mm fed with tubes split from Apollo cold air feed . So Apollo at front of bay , it’s flexi splits into two smaller flexis each feeding one of the two socks . Space saving . Webcon 45mm manifold , Sytec fuel pump , Sytec fuel regulator , Sytec filter , Bosch injectors , Ehhine bay swirl tank which will be fed by red tops in boot . All compatible with -6 . Have you bought all teh pump etc bits? I would say it is worth considering an in-tank pump. I used a mk4 golf etc pump, built in swirlpot etc so very convenient. There was also a company at Stoneleigh, who make an ali tank for spitfires that takes a pump, possible peugeot. I am a cheapskate, so modified a tank that had been dry-stored for about 15 years, safe to weld. A low-mileage golf pump was £10. Bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 Hi Zetec , commend you on your attitude but these are my tanks with a race battery underneath so I will just use the current red tops to pump the fuel forward to the swirl tank sitting in the battery tray . Make sense ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 This should be delivered tomorrow , race weight flywheel stepped for the Tilton 7.25” . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 That is a real question to anyone with FI knowledge , does that make sense please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit131 Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 I also grabbed these two sets of HC pistons , one 84.6 for the Fiat 130TC engine which are .6 over size 84.6 but now realise that is possibly not close enough for an 84.6 rebore ., the other a shade over size for the no.2 1592 block assuming and yes just assuming it is a ‘ bit worn ‘ OE size . Fingers crossed they may work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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