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Steve 13-60

are triumph engines really this rough?

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:blink:No way! :mad: Send that video to Canleys!!

Not only do they owe you a cam (Dave are you reading this?), but they need to know there is a problem and investigate with their supplier. Given that they are reprofiles of OE cams it’s probably unique to that actual cam (if you didn’t have bad luck you wouldn’t have any at all). Lack of lube though.....:huh:...... it ain’t that.

Did wonder when I Saw the damage on the fuel pump lobe.

Probably irrelevant in this case but these are flat tappet cams. Flat means flat, not slightly crowned. You should always check new tappers/followers by holding two face to face. There should be no rock at all - in fact they should almost stick together with a light coat of oil.  I have been sent crowned followers twice. Both by companies who know better. Both replaced without quibble and one was “oh crap, thought we’d found all of those”.

Dont fit ‘em, they die very young and take the cam with them.

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My son grew up with me struggling in a standard uk sized garage. So when he built his, he sorta went ott!

Theres an 6m x 3m workshop across the back too :)

And the ever helpful grand kids of course.

Funny though, when up on the lift the doors wouldnt shut! But thats why I dragged it here....room for the body off resto. But for the next month whilst the sun is out we'll use it to go out and about.

IMG_20200721_170619.jpg

IMG_20200721_170632.jpg

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Went to the local DIY shop yesterday. Parked beside a Moggy Minor! Guy also had a Spit and E type. I'll have to check out what clubs are out here.

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Thanks to the support from you guys Dave at Canley has agreed to inspect the cam and give a refund if found below standard. I'll also send the followers back as it could have been those that caused the issue. I'l post some pics of the followers later.

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Good luck with that - though difficult to see how it could be argued in this case.  Not even a decent quality full size hacksaw blade should touch a cam lobe, let alone a junior blade.

I'm sure Dave will see you right - can't be easy being piggy-in-the-middle between various indifferent suppliers/manufacturers and grumpy customers of varying ability!

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On 7/21/2020 at 11:46 AM, JumpingFrog said:

But odd for them to say oil starvation, because I would be inclined to believe that a vast majority of the lubrication for cam faces is from the mist in the crank case. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

This is spot on.  It's a pretty thick mist too, mostly from the oil exiting the bearings and being flung around.  You'll get damn-all from the top, even with drilled followers.  I believe that this "mist" lubrication is one  reason, maybe even the main reason, why you are supposed to keep the engine at >2000 rpm for 20 minutes while the cam is "breaking in", to ensure that the "mist" is good and thick.

Possibly related - I have noted that it's often the lobes at the cam ends which wear first - I speculate they see less mist.....

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19 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

It's a pretty thick mist too, mostly from the oil exiting the bearings and being flung around.

To put on my pedantic hat, oil spray please!

Oil mist is a different beast entirely, essentially a thick white fog that is highly highly explosive. One of our worst nightmares onboard, our Main Engine has an entire system whose only job is to detect oil mist!

Here's a video as an example, the first couple of minutes gives you an idea:

https://youtu.be/YVe4kI421Qs

Phil

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Ok, ok.... I didn’t like the “mist” term much, but “spray” didn’t seem quite right either......

Interesting video clip. Surprising absence of reaction..... the first flashover did a pretty good job of clearing the mist though.

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So, having just forked out over 200 beer tokens for the Newman cam and followers I must admit to being a tad apprehensive if it'll last more than 5 minutes.

So what is the 'recommended' build/run-in procedure?

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Do make sure the followers are flat faced (yes, even there!).

Do use a cam lube/assembly paste.

Do use an oil with decent ZDDP levels (1200ppm ish)

Try to arrange it so the engine starts promptly and once started you want to keep the engine spinning at 1800 - 2500rpm for at least 20 minutes. If you need to turn it off, no worries, just don’t let it idle - need to keep the oil flying!

Try to avoid long periods of idling until you’ve a few miles. It doesn’t help ring seating either.

Thats about it.

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35 minutes ago, Steve 13-60 said:

So, having just forked out over 200 beer tokens for the Newman cam and followers I must admit to being a tad apprehensive if it'll last more than 5 minutes.

So what is the 'recommended' build/run-in procedure?

There isn't one for a newman cam, just slather it in engine lube and use as though you are running the engine in - no bedding in or special treatment according to Newman.

http://www.newman-cams.com/camshaft-fitting/

From that page:

Starting the Engine:-

Remove the spark plugs, turn the engine over on the starter motor until the oil light goes out/or the oil pressure registers pressure. Replace spark plugs.

Start the engine as you would in normal use. There is no need to run the engine at 3000 RPM for 20 minutes. Just treat the engine as if it was new for the 100 miles then off you go.

To obtain maximum performance on PH3/4/5 cams a visit down to the rolling road is advisable.

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Oh yeah, forgot to mention....when I stripped the head at xmas to do the DIY mods I found it has double valve springs....but that doesnt appear to be standard for a 13/60 or even a Spit. I have a receipt for hardened seats fitted, but no mention of springs or any other mods.

Double springs wouldnt cause a problem, would it?

They didnt seem particularly stiff....just similar to what I'm used to on old mini cooper Ss.

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Ah, something else I just remembered...

After having 1mm skimmed off the head (CR now 9.75:1) I noticed the pushrods only just fitted with the screws at max out. So I made a set of 1mm spacer plates for under the pedastals, ( yes, I remembered the oil feed hole) but the screws were still close to max so made a set of 2mm plates, which seemed ok.

I measured the chamber volume etc to determine how much to skim off.....although it will now be a tad higher with having 0.2mm skimmed of the block..

Fortunately the Aral petrol stations out here sell 103 octane fuel :)

 

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Well that explains the need for the 2mm spacers....base circle on the NOS mk2 cam is 25.4mm. base on canley cam is 28.4mm (only got metric micrometers!).

Will ask Newman what their base is.

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That's interesting Steve, let us know what they say. 

I was quite conservative in my mk3 Spitfire head skim because I didn't want to upset the rocker geometry. But in fact, I've got loads of adjustment left. CR approx 9.6 according to my calcs. 

That's on the original mk3 cam but I fancy going for a Newman PH2 or PH3 sometime in the next 18 months. 

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19 hours ago, Steve 13-60 said:

After having 1mm skimmed off the head (CR now 9.75:1) I noticed the pushrods only just fitted with the screws at max out.

1500 pushrods?  Wouldn't have expected a 1mm head skim to cause a problem.....

 

1 hour ago, Steve 13-60 said:

base circle on the NOS mk2 cam is 25.4mm. base on canley cam is 28.4mm

?!  The base circle on your "re-profiled" cam is 3mm more than an unmolested one.......? :blink:

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44 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

1500 pushrods?  Wouldn't have expected a 1mm head skim to cause a problem.....

 

?!  The base circle on your "re-profiled" cam is 3mm more than an unmolested one.......? :blink:

Yep, how big was it before reprofiling???!!

Nope, standard 1300 pushrods....or whatever was fitted before I got it.

Just been for a cruise up the dual carriageway, it trundles along quite nicely at 60-65 with the roof down. You can even hold a normal conversation without shouting, which was nice. Exhaust silencer is too loud though....needs to go on the todo list...anyone recommend one for a tuned 1300? I want it to let the engine breath but be as quiet as poss.

 

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A reground cam is never a good thing. 
Far better to buy new.
The equipment used to grind is most important. You will not get a good grind with worn or uncalibrated equipment.
Newman have a good grinding machine. Piper I believe are in the process of buying one.

Cheers,

Iain.

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:26 PM, Steve 13-60 said:

Yep, how big was it before reprofiling???!!

Dunno what it's meant to be..... Just measured two 6 cylinder cams, OE 308778, so same profile as Mk3 Spit.  Both have 27.5mm-ish base circle......

 

On 7/25/2020 at 3:26 PM, Steve 13-60 said:

Nope, standard 1300 pushrods....or whatever was fitted before I got it.

I'll go with the second...... what length?

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Had a reply from Newman, they grind to a base of 27.5.

The pushrods are 198mm/7.8" long.

Just plastigauged the journals, the diametral clearance is 0.001" bigger than spec, I think that should be ok.

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On 7/27/2020 at 8:32 PM, Steve 13-60 said:

Just plastigauged the journals, the diametral clearance is 0.001" bigger than spec, I think that should be ok.

I'm no expert but 1 thou over seems a bit slack to me - are we talking about crankshaft mains / big ends? (Not sure how you would plasti-gauge camshaft journals..?) Did you fully torque up the bearing caps to measure clearance?

How was oil pressure when it was last running?

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Crank mains, oil pressure was 60psi cold, dropping to around 30 on tickover, so I'm not unduly worried......seen and run a helluva lot worse! And yep, fully torqued the caps.

....waiting for the new bits to arrive so I can rebuild it...

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Well that was a good test of the 1500.

Its 39degrees in the shade out here today and we got stuck in a traffic jam on the way to the garden centre, but she didnt overheat or complain at all, oil pressure was still 20psi at tickover (500rpm). So well pleased.

That 1500 is proving to be a bargain for £50.

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