Covid 19, novel corona virus. Split from off-grid thread

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Zetec,

Appointments are essential, as the vaccine is in batches, must be drawn up for the required number and MUST be used within a certain time, so the number needed must be known in advance.    Where I vaccinate, great effort has been made to include people who turned up on the wrong day/wrong centre/ who had been missed.     There are almost always 'no shows'  (Boooooo!) And so left overs at the end of the day, which are used up on anyone due who can get in quickly.    

Anyone vaccinated is recorded on a national database, so they won't get called twice for the same jab.

 

Peter, 

does VitD provide NINETY % protection?       Vaccination does!

John

 

 

But it wasn't there when needed. I'm sure if the Hormone D had been stressed early last year many 1000's of lives would have been saved.

D will protect from many many viruses where as a vaccine generally helps against one

 

Roger

[PeterC]

51 minutes ago, JohnD said:

NINETY % protection?       Vaccination does!

John, Maybe it does, at present, to the Wuhan spike RBD. But mass vacciantion drives virus evolution into strains that circumvent the antibodies. It is a mistake to use vaccines on all inlcuding those a little risk. New vax-resistant strains will soon appear, faster than the vaccines can be reformulated, "tested" for safety and administered.

I shall not be taking any further vaccine for C-19. The risk of autoimmune attack is too great.

https://ijvtpr.com/index.php/IJVTPR/article/view/23

D3 at physiological levels 100-150 nmol/L is likely to be as good as the current vaccine and is not diminihsed by virus evolution. It induces ca 200 anti-microbial peptides and so also eliminates bacterial and fungal lung infections, which  vaccines do not touch.

The deaths per million from C-19 in Africa is  a tiny fraction of UK rate, so they must have either much better doctors and hospitals than UK or something other than vaccines. That something is sun and D3. http://www.drdavidgrimes.com/2021/04/covid-19-vitamin-d-there-is-no-african.html

The palybook outlined by McCullough in the video  explains why D3 along with drugs for treating early C-19 have been deliiberately banned to promote EUA of vaccines. So I have no defitive answer to how effectiive is D3, there has been no research, funding was banned. But I would not be surprised if 150 nmo/L would protect all but the very sick, and C-19 would present as nothing more than a bad cold.

Time will tell. But it will not be my  family or friends who are denied knowing about D3.

Peter

[zetecspit]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Zetec,

Appointments are essential, as the vaccine is in batches, must be drawn up for the required number and MUST be used within a certain time, so the number needed must be known in advance.    Where I vaccinate, great effort has been made to include people who turned up on the wrong day/wrong centre/ who had been missed.     There are almost always 'no shows'  (Boooooo!) And so left overs at the end of the day, which are used up on anyone due who can get in quickly.    

Anyone vaccinated is recorded on a national database, so they won't get called twice for the same jab.

 

Peter, 

does VitD provide NINETY % protection?       Vaccination does!

John

 

 

John, my point is that teh NHS system was sending out nonsense information. Having spoken to Gill about it today (retelling the story etc) she was told when on te phone to te booking service our original appointments were still valid despite the spurious text. But how were we to know? The whole thing caused confusion. Probably with many thousands of people.

Anyway, a nice trip to the delightful Crawley and we were both jabbed yesterday. Had a very mild headache, Gill the same, but worse. Nothing like I felt after my first jab, that was thoroughly unpleasant.

So I feel confident I am well protected. I am taking hefty doses of D3 too. No idea if it is helping or not. But no real downside.

 

[PeterC]

Here is the early treatment protocol:

https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/10.31083/j.rcm.2020.04.264

May well be needed next winter.

Peter

[JohnD]

Peter,

Quote the paper you linked to : " While there are no studies demonstrating definitively that this is happening, we provide a plausible scenario"

in other words they are guessing.   NO evidence, NO studies, they are speculating.   Dangerous alarmist speculation, guaranteed to fuel the anti-vaccinatoion lobby.

Get your sunshine.   Get your "hammer dose" VitD shots.   But GET VACCINATED!!!

 

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, RogerH said:

"HelpsD will protect from many many viruses where as a vaccine generally helps against one

 

Roger

"Helps".   How much?   As much as, not being obese, not having a pre-existing illness, eating a healthy diet, not smoking?  Not being more than 60 years old?    None of these, except the last, and you have to be less than 30, offers anything like as much protection, 90+%, as vaccination, from dying from Covid.  

GET VACCINATED!      

[PeterC]

GET VACCINATED........................AGAIN................and AGAIN................and AGAIN..............

The current vax are going to fail, and the more of the population vax'd the quiker the virus will be driven by natural selection to bypass the vaccine. If the vaxes had only been used on the vulnerable we might have slowed that viral evolution, But no everyone has to be vax'd and that shortens its utility in everyone. Result: more new vaccines will be needed, against HOME-GROWN variants that will soon evolve. Worse, because the population D3 levels rise and we fight off all variants with the summer sun, these new vaccine-dodging variants circulating in UK will fail to be recognised as dangerous. Worse still several variants may evolve that cannot be addressed with a single new vaccine. The present vax only had to work against the Wuhan virus, but several different escape variants may be evolving now, needing new vax again, and again and again.

I am deeply concerned that vaccination is going to fail. It takes months to produce a new vaccine and onths more to  deliver it. New vax cannot be tested for auto-immune disasters.

The UK may because if its widespread vaccination be running a unique experiment in the best way to abuse a vaccine, and how to promulgate with a wing and a prayer that it will continue to work against new variants: home-grown new variants.

Peter

[PeterC]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

"Helps".   How much?   As much as, not being obese, not having a pre-existing illness, eating a healthy diet, not smoking?  Not being more than 60 years old?    None of these, except the last, and you have to be less than 30, offers anything like as much protection, 90+%, as vaccination, from dying from Covid.  

GET VACCINATED!      

Roger is right, vaccines are epitope-specific and new viral epitopes can escape antibody mediated immunity. By contrast cathelicidin and the ca 200 other anti-microbial peptides induced by good D3 status inactivate by lysis all enveloped viruses and bacteria and fungi.  Lysis prevents the enormous 1000s-fold amplification of virus count, resulting in less transmission and less chance of new variants evolving. Vax act later in infection and too slow to prevent ampification, leaving the door open for the virus to evolve.

I am content to rely upon D3 and the hammer, as discovered by Schwalfenberg for flu in the elderly ( he never lost a pt).  My acceptance of vaccines against C-19 has ended, with good reason based upon science.

This winter we will know just how low that "90%" really is against new  variants.

BTW it is known that the obese need ca 2 to 3 fold larger D3 supplements to bring 25(OH)D to physiological. Many health issues that increase suscpetibily to C-19 would be avoide by routine D3 supplements, but the medical profession remians unaware by and large .  D3 deficincy drives the pandemic, not lack of vaccines, oxygen shortages, overloaded ICUs etc etc.

Peter

 

[GT6MK3]

So to be clear, because you tend to run on a bit. what you're promoting is "Don't get vaccinated, just take Vit D". 

Is that correct?

I hope it's not.

 

 

[Nick Jones]

Not an approach I would endorse.

 

for a bit of balance 

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/does-vitamin-d-protect-against-covid-19
 

https://theconversation.com/the-sun-goes-down-on-vitamin-d-why-i-changed-my-mind-about-this-celebrated-supplement-52725?

 

[PeterC]

I am confident both that D3 taken prophylatically at appropriate dose, and using the "hammer" will both safely protect me from severe C-19 and reduce  transmission, whatever variant infects me.

I am wary of vaccination: the safety trials have been rushed;  there are concerns that antibodies to the spike protien may also mount auto-immune attack; unlike drugs vaccination is irreversible; repeated re-vaccination will be needed on an emergency basis (ie still no adequate safety trials ) to cover new variants.

 I rely upon my own risk-benefit analysis and it comes down firmly in favour of D3 and against further vaccinations.

You all should do what you think best. Its no bother to me if we disagree.

 Peter

 

[GT6MK3]

Allow me to put on my sober and serious hat then.

The A to Z of belief runs the gamut all the way from advocate to zealot, and after a thorough read of this topic it would be hard to argue that you don't fall at the right hand end of that spectrum.

This is a car site, where we're pretty willing to discuss other stuff too. 

You've been afforded unfettered opportunity to espouse your beliefs in the benefits of Vit D, and taken full advantage of that opportunity.

Your choice to remain unvaccinated and put your faith in your choices is your right, and I have no problem with you exercising it.

You're welcome to promote your belief in the benefits of Vit D, but I'm going to politely ask that you refrain from pushing an anti-vax agenda via this site.

[RogerH]

28 minutes ago, GT6MK3 said:

Allow me to put on my sober and serious hat then.

The A to Z of belief runs the gamut all the way from advocate to zealot, and after a thorough read of this topic it would be hard to argue that you don't fall at the right hand end of that spectrum.

This is a car site, where we're pretty willing to discuss other stuff too. 

You've been afforded unfettered opportunity to espouse your beliefs in the benefits of Vit D, and taken full advantage of that opportunity.

Your choice to remain unvaccinated and put your faith in your choices is your right, and I have no problem with you exercising it.

You're welcome to promote your belief in the benefits of Vit D, but I'm going to politely ask that you refrain from pushing an anti-vax agenda via this site.

Hi Craig

nicely put and very polite.

Anti anything should be limited.

Anti-Vacc is not a good way to get the message over.

I'm an advocate of 'D' as I believe it saved me a lot of bother in early Jan 2020.

I'm sure I had C19 (before the alarm bells in the UK stated to ring). My asthma didn't help things  but a course of Amoxicillin and Prednisalone coupled with 5000IU/day Vit D  sorted me out after a total of three weeks of the lurgy.

This year I have had both jabs of fizzy phizer.

oger

[PeterC]

Craig, Do me the courtesy of requesting a pdf of the paper I cited

4 hours ago, GT6MK3 said:

Allow me to put on my sober and serious hat then.

The A to Z of belief runs the gamut all the way from advocate to zealot, and after a thorough read of this topic it would be hard to argue that you don't fall at the right hand end of that spectrum.p

This is a car site, where we're pretty willing to discuss other stuff too. 

You've been afforded unfettered opportunity to espouse your beliefs in the benefits of Vit D, and taken full advantage of that opportunity.

Your choice to remain unvaccinated and put your faith in your choices is your right, and I have no problem with you exercising it.

You're welcome to promote your belief in the benefits of Vit D, but I'm going to politely ask that you refrain from pushing an anti-vax agenda via this site.

Craig,

No-one requested a copy of the IJCVI paper I linked to yesterday, that alerts readers to the potential risks in these expermental m RNA and DNA vaccines.    The offer is still open.

I shall voluntarily exclude myself from further comment on ST on all aspects of C-19.

Peter

[RedRooster]

Very well put Craig, wish I had your diplomacy skills.

RR

[JohnD]

PeterC argues as the academic he is, from his own reading of the literature.    We don't agree, but that's often true of academics!

But if you want to see real rolling-eyed, fruit-loop antivaxers, see the prog on Ch4 right now(21:10) and no doubt anyone on All4 later. 

John 

PS. Still watching.  Most of the prog is about the "MMR causes Autism" myth and struck-off 'doctor' Andrew Wakefield, not anti-covid vaccine myths, although it started with Piers "it's the end of the human race as we know it" Corbyn, frothing about conspiracies.

Edited June 1, 2021 by JohnD

[socalspitfireguru]

And now we have a study that concludes that taking D3 does not protect one against Covid-19

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003605

From the symptoms that some of my friends and co-workers have suffered, I have no desire to risk catching Covid-19. 

I'm glad that I've had both my shots of Pfizer - but not withstanding, I'm also getting plenty of sunshine and supplementing my D3 levels with an extra 2000 IU per day just to be on the safe side. 

[RogerH]

11 hours ago, socalspitfireguru said:

And now we have a study that concludes that taking D3 does not protect one against Covid-19

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003605

From the symptoms that some of my friends and co-workers have suffered, I have no desire to risk catching Covid-19. 

I'm glad that I've had both my shots of Pfizer - but not withstanding, I'm also getting plenty of sunshine and supplementing my D3 levels with an extra 2000 IU per day just to be on the safe side. 

There is a lot there to digest. Having a quick scan through it I found only one mention of 'D' levels  - 

Primary MR analysis

We first used IVW meta-analysis to combine effect estimates from each genetic instrument. For a standard deviation increase in log-transformed 25OHD level, we observed no statistically significant effect upon odds of susceptibility (OR = 0.95; 95% CI: 0.84, 1.08; p = 0.44). Of note, in the UKB, the distribution of 25OHD levels has a mean of 48.6 nmol/L and a standard deviation of 21.1 nmol/L. This standard deviation is comparable to what can be achieved with vitamin D supplementation, especially over short therapeutic courses [41]. Similarly, we observed no significant difference in risk of hospitalization (OR = 1.09; 95% CI: 0.89, 1.33; p = 0.41) or risk of severe disease (OR = 0.97; 95% CI: 0.77, 1.22; p = 0.77) associated with a standard deviation increase in log-transformed 25OHD level (Table 2; Fig 1).

 

I believe this is too low to have any significant affect (typical of the UK population).

I think you need to be looking at about 75nmol/L and above

This can be achieved  by supplements in the region of 4000 - 5000IU/day  over a few months.. The NHS is recommending 400IU/day - for general health.

 

 

So are the research team not understanding the mechanism of the Hormone VitD

Or are they trying to discredit it

 

Roger.

 

 

[PeterC]

15 hours ago, socalspitfireguru said:

And now we have a study that concludes that taking D3 does not protect one against Covid-19

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003605

From the symptoms that some of my friends and co-workers have suffered, I have no desire to risk catching Covid-19. 

I'm glad that I've had both my shots of Pfizer - but not withstanding, I'm also getting plenty of sunshine and supplementing my D3 levels with an extra 2000 IU per day just to be on the safe side. 

I'll break my silence to answer this.

The study looked to see if "mutants" in genes involved in D3 signalling correlated with C-19 infections or not. They found no correlation. The fundalmental flaw that destroys its conclusion that D3 is NBG for C-19 is it  cannot analyse how much D3 was being made iln the two groups. The study is confounded by sunshiine (UVB index), clothing, "slip,slap, slop" and increasingly supplementation. They failed to spot that 25(OH)D could change independently of the gene polymorphs.

There are  genetic differences in how well we repsond with our immune system to D3 supplements, but that is another story.

Peter

 

[PeterC]

3 hours ago, RogerH said:

There is a lot there to digest. Having a quick scan through it I found only one mention of 'D' levels  - 

Primary MR analysis

 

We first used IVW meta-analysis to combine effect estimates from each genetic instrument. For a standard deviation increase in log-transformed 25OHD level, we observed no statistically significant effect upon odds of susceptibility (OR = 0.95; 95% CI: 0.84, 1.08; p = 0.44). Of note, in the UKB, the distribution of 25OHD levels has a mean of 48.6 nmol/L and a standard deviation of 21.1 nmol/L. This standard deviation is comparable to what can be achieved with vitamin D supplementation, especially over short therapeutic courses [41]. Similarly, we observed no significant difference in risk of hospitalization (OR = 1.09; 95% CI: 0.89, 1.33; p = 0.41) or risk of severe disease (OR = 0.97; 95% CI: 0.77, 1.22; p = 0.77) associated with a standard deviation increase in log-transformed 25OHD level (Table 2; Fig 1).

 

I believe this is too low to have any significant affect (typical of the UK population).

I think you need to be looking at about 75nmol/L and above

This can be achieved  by supplements in the region of 4000 - 5000IU/day  over a few months.. The NHS is recommending 400IU/day - for general health.

 

 

So are the research team not understanding the mechanism of the Hormone VitD

Or are they trying to discredit it

 

Roger.

 

 

Bang on the money Roger. Statistical trickery applying SDs cannot circumvent the lack of data on 25(OH)D in the controls vs C-19 cohorts.

75 is the very lowest end of safe for C-19. 100-150 nmol/L safer, but it depends upon our genes.

Peter

[littlejim]

Pete,

Any views on the vaccines for the Chicken Pox, Mumps, Measles, Rubella and Polio viruses and their longevity?

[PeterC]

5 hours ago, littlejim said:

Pete,

Any views on the vaccines for the Chicken Pox, Mumps, Measles, Rubella and Polio viruses and their longevity?

LJ,  These viruses mutate very slowly if at all, so our long-lived T-cell immunity endowed by a single vaccine is hugely beneficial both to the individual and  the populations.  Peter

[littlejim]

11 hours ago, PeterC said:

LJ,  These viruses mutate very slowly if at all, so our long-lived T-cell immunity endowed by a single vaccine is hugely beneficial both to the individual and  the populations.  Peter

Thanks Pete.

[PeterC]

11 hours ago, littlejim said:

Thanks Pete.

JIm, That was my politically correct reply to satisfy Craig.

There is still a unresolved dispute over the 1950s polio vaccine and its contamination with live monkey-virus SV40.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SV40

Peter

[Nick Jones]

I don’t believe that anyone could argue that vaccines in general have not had an enormously positive impact on human health worldwide.

As to polio, growing up in Africa 45 years ago, I came across people affected by it. Kids in my classes at school. One in a wheelchair. The other one could still walk, but would never walk right again, and his sister had died of it.......