Covid 19, novel corona virus. Split from off-grid thread

[mattius]

The problem is everyone wants them and now, not just the UK, the whole world is all after the same thing all at once.

The stock is there apparently according to the Mrs, the logistics just isn't, hence you have the army delivering masks!!

I can't knock the Government, the scale of this is so unprecedented and affects so many aspects of our lives its almost impossible to get everything right, they should call in more experts though like they have with the Ventilators, get Amazon, DHL etc to manage logistics, etc.

The problem with masks is you have to be fitted for a type and brand of mask, it has to be tested with a special solution to ensure it is protecting you before you are singed off to work in infected areas. If they change the brand or type, you have to be re-fitted again, its not simple and takes time! Is it perfect, no! but they are trying! 

The Mrs is exhausted, ill from stress and recovering from another horrid C, yet every morning i drive her to work and she goes in, to do her best in a situation where you cannot win no matter how hard you try! and we are two weeks out from the peak! I have no idea how these guys keep it up, but i'm in awe every day!

[John I]

D3 is a wonderful beast, however big phama doesn't make any money out of it so its position and use in the main stream medical fraternity is not paramount. As a result it is side lined to 2nd fiddle and used/promoted more by homeopathy/alternative therapy practitioners who don't have a vested interest!

[John I]

7 minutes ago, mattius said:

! 

The Mrs is exhausted, ill from stress and recovering from another horrid C, yet every morning i drive her to work and she goes in, to do her best in a situation where you cannot win no matter how hard you try! and we are two weeks out from the peak! I have no idea how these guys keep it up, but i'm in awe every day!

 to Mrs mattius and her colleagues. Hope she gets a break soon so she can recover.

[PeterC]

3 minutes ago, John I said:

D3 is a wonderful beast, however big phama doesn't make any money out of it so its position and use in the main stream medical fraternity is not paramount. As a result it is side lined to 2nd fiddle and used/promoted more by homeopathy/alternative therapy practitioners who don't have a vested interest!

Its in part the absence of big pharma profits. But clinical trails are bedevilled by clinicins prior assumption of the dose to use, rather than a scintifically defined dose ( ie that needed to achieve a physiological blood level). So D3 trials largelt never work ...liek drinvinga 200 mile race with 100 miles worth of fuel ( seometimes less). Peter

[John I]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Crack on Boris?!   No doubt by saying "de minimis non curat praetor", 

 

 

John D

I doubt Boris thinks the virus or having to deal with it are " minimal things or trifling matters"

My step daughter is Principle Private Secretary to a cabinet minister and I can assure you that non of this is being taken lightly or considered a" trifling matter"

The native Indians have a saying " don't judge a man untill you have walked a mile in his shoes" untill you have held the top job John D I think maybe you should be a little less judgemental of others efforts.

[PaulAA]

12 minutes ago, John I said:

John D

I doubt Boris thinks the virus or having to deal with it are " minimal things or trifling matters"

My step daughter is Principle Private Secretary to a cabinet minister and I can assure you that non of this is being taken lightly or considered a" trifling matter"

The native Indians have a saying " don't judge a man untill you have walked a mile in his shoes" untill you have held the top job John D I think maybe you should be a little less judgemental of others efforts.

I regret that I disagree.

There is evidently a groundswell of support for Johnson, which appears to this distant observer to be little justified by his qualities of leadership.  He has taken some pretty serious gambles (not least with his level of commitment until ten days ago) and the figures emerging simply do not indicate any level of vindication of his approach.

Looking at the reactions of leaders elsewhere in the world and the 'serious' press abroad, also shows the widespread disbelief that a country of the stature of the UK could have taken such a cavalier approach.    It's all very well to quote Native American folklore, but it has no relevance - the reality is that this is a job that he craved and he has to be judged on his performance to date.  That is the nature of public service.  As I said above, compare and contrast to the authority demonstrated by Andrew Cuomo.

But at the end of it, there is no choice - BoJo has to deliver.

[John I]

PaulAA, I understand where you are coming from but as I said earlier each leader is getting their own source/feed of advice and scientific evidence upon which they have to make a judgement call which is a subjective decision by that individual.

Nobody on here is (as far as I am aware) privy to any of the detailed advice or evidence given/proffered to any of those leaders with the unenviable task of having to make such decisions. When this all rolls out and the fat lady has sung and the post-mortems held then and only then can rational judgement be made with the benefit of hinde sight. Hopefully we will learn from whatever mistakes were made the world over and take heed of those decisions where it went right.

It servers no one at present to make judgements as we don't know the final outcome!

[zetecspit]

Indeed, I stand by the fact that this cannot be judged on a day-to-day basis. We need to consider the long game and how effective the strategy was. It may not be the best, but I would put money on it being far from the worst. And how do you judge success? number of deaths? economic cost? or combine them so you get the per capita economic hit x number of deaths?  But then you have to take off the number of people who would have died on average (something the last round of projections failed to included, and it will be significant. Many of those who die of CV would likely die anyway of flu etc. Those stats are years away.

[PeterC]

To me the guys with the worst job are the CMO and CSA. Its an unknown virus and the science of controlling ( correction:attmepting to limit) a pandemic is theory-based with little or no practical experience. And to have their advice modified by a COBRA committee of politicians must be stressful in the extreme, fighting their corner armed only with maths and graphs. And at the same time taking heed of other expert scientists with a different take on strategy. Science is  a lot less defintive than non-scientists think: abolute answers are thin on the groung. Yet they take on the job knowing there are no winners, except the virus. Boris is very fortunate to have them, lets hope they have not f888ed up.

 

Peter

[TR5tar]

Who knew, even just a few weeks ago, that the world was on a knife edge (OK, Bill Gates did to be fair). It now seems a lifetime ago that I was sat around the table enjoying Christmas with family and friends. How quickly everything has changed. Yes, some mistakes in policy and strategy might have been made along the way, but I certainly believe that everyone involved in managing this is doing their absolute best. I can understand that frustration and fear leads to anger, but negativity and blaming doesn't really do much good in the end. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Time for everyone to pull together; that's the way to beat this. I'm overwhelmed by the numbers of retired NHS staff returning to work, but not surprised by their selfless acts. They and those already at the frontline placing themselves at risk are true "heroes", and that's not a word I use lightly. Likewise, those manufacturing firms that are working at breakneck speed to assist. Of course these things are not ideal, but these are not ideal times. And in cities, towns and villages all over, people are banding together with neighbours to help one another. I'm working with others in our street to make sure that nobody gets left behind if we can help it. Everyone I speak with wants to put themselves forward. That's the spirit. 

Darren

[Martin]

I´m watching every day the statistics. It seems the increase stabilizes / slows down in Germany.

7 weeks ago I strolled with my wife in Rome, now everybody in Europe and a big part of the world stays at home, what will the world look like in Summer?

Martin

 

[JohnD]

Zetec - typical British?  Typical British exceptionalism.     You would have thought that Flanders & Swann would have knocked that on the head, all of 66 years ago!  It wasn't called satire in those days, but it is, bitingly so.

As for where are the PPE to come from, from PREPARATION!    You will note that a large quantity was made immediately available, as have been all the hospital beds to go into the Excel centre and no doubt the NEC, the Manchester Centre and the other 11 'field hospitals' to be constructed.     All that comes from fist of all military strategic stores, because the military PREPARE, and from all the bed closures imposed upon the NHS by successive governments.    in the last 30 years the number of beds in the NHS has HALVED, half as menay as there used to be, while bed occupancy has rised to more than 90% AS A ROUTINE!     When bed occupancy rises above 85%, the risk of cross infection rises FOUR FOLD, even with devoted and diligent nursing.    Canny managers will have stored away some of those beds, because the NHS is another orgnisation that PREPARES, plans and stores for the bad times.    Trouble is, every time in the last ten years has been a bad time for the NHS, thanks to the Tory Party polcy of denying it (and so much else of the State) proper resources.   They have not had the funds to pay for even ordinary building maintenence, so I will take no lectures from you or any Tory on the "huge effort" that group of wasters are employing to dig themselves out of the hole they have put us all in.

Finally, no, I don't understand the Latin in the tags  quoted, but them I don't think that Johnson did either, he just trotted them out to give himself an air of pretentious scholarship. I'll give you another, in English, "Lions led by donkleys"?   More like Heroes led by wasters.   Pah.

John

PS John I.  Not judge until you have been in a top job?   I held a 'top job', chairman of my hospital department.     I will take no lectures from you, either, on the responsibilities of leadership!

PPS  I resign from this thread - it's not good for me.

Edited March 26, 2020 by JohnD

[mattius]

I don't think any one of us could comprehend all the stuff that is going on in a PM's world at a time like this, not only concentrating on the NHS but the food supply chain, economy, peoples welfare, peoples livelihoods, the list goes on and on. Not really comparable to any of our jobs or previous jobs. I for one certainly wouldn't want to be doing that job!

 

The best thing of all that has come out of this is all the political parties working together, and i like to think the population are joining them working with each other and not against!

 

 

I think being locked up is getting to everyone! as my sister said the other day, "A good day is one where you don't cry!"

[JohnD]

I'm back, but only for an important development.    It's clear that research is needed, to guide us at this time and for the future, when no doubt other bugs will appear.

Guy's and St.Thomas' Hospitals Biomedical Research Centre have put out the COVID Symptom Tracker app, which will allow a better understanding of how it spreads, who to and where and why high-risk areas exist.

Go to: https://covid.joinzoe.com/ to read all about it, and then load it onto your mobile.

john

PS it's takimng an age to download to mine -lots of people doing it!

[SP]

I think some people on here need to put their Guardians down and stop watching the BBC.

If Boris invented a Vaccine today they would still criticize,due to past events rather than what the government are trying to deal with now based on Scientific advice.

S

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, SP said:

I think some people on here need to put their Guardians down and stop watching the BBC

Ok..... so where do you get your reliable news from then?

[SP]

I don` t subscribe to any dailies,the only magazine i subscribe to is Private Eye,i read a lot off stuff online but i like to think objectively and not from one or other bias.

Steve

[GT6MK3]

366 replies on this thread so far.  Let’s continue to keep it nice folks.

[PeteStupps]

I think the news and analysis on Radio 4 is generally very good, and as balanced as you're likely to get. For some reason the BBC news on telly and website don't seem up to the same standard to me.

The only other bit I'd add to this political aspect is something I also noticed from Facebook friends: if you hated Boris before this business you are very likely to continue hating him! Reminds me of an old flatmate I had - every single thing he did wound me up but the other flatmate could do no wrong because I liked him.

(Sorry if that's a bit flippant for such a grave subject...)

[thebrookster]

I am with John here. There is nothing good about BoJo. 

His response to this virus was roughly 1 week too late. The evidence was there, Nicola Sturgeon (yes, that awful Scottish nationalist harrigon) was calling for greater restrictions from the start, however she couldn't act because the powers required remain with Westminster.

On top of that, the advice he has provided is contradictory. Stay isolated in "lockdown", making only infrequent and irregular visits to shops when required. Except majority of shops are forced into rationing, which of course forces people (particularly families) into regular and frequent trips!

The UK and BoJo is a laughing stock worldwide. PaulAA has mentioned this in this thread, Craig in Australia has also mentioned this on this forum. I see it every time I am away working. I very nearly didn't get to join my ship this time, because my company were musing about stopping all UK officers from joining because they considered the UK response to be so poor ( at the start of March). That's a rather large oil major who operate internationally. (In the end they banned all crew changes indefinitely from 13th March, it took a further 11 days for BoJo to take action!)

I no longer admit to being English when I am abroad any more, I simply say that I live in Scotland.

To everyone who thinks BoJo is doing such a good job, carry on folks. Make Britain Great Again, you are doing a stellar job.

I likewise now bow out from this thread, my blood pressure cannot take it.

Phil

[mattius]

Like him or loathe him, he's what we've got,

I'm not his biggest fan, has he got it right, nah, but im not sure anyone else would have done a better job (especially not Corbyn or Wee Jimmie Krankie we have up here)

It could be worse, we could have trump! who will sacrifice all his people in a couple of weeks to boost his economy and to "fill the churches".

[GT6Steve]

Has anyone heard of avoiding various pain pills during this period?  A UK friend has said they've had to stop their Naproxen for the duration?  I've seen no such advice here in the USA.  BTW, Las Vegas is expected to reach 27C this weekend so maybe nature will give us short term relief?

[Adrian Cooper]

19 hours ago, zetecspit said:

It is a massive positive that all sorts of companies are getting involved. From the F1 teams etc through to vacuum cleaner manufacturers. That is typical British response to a crisis. We tend to take a bit of a "wait and see" approach, and then come up with some interesting solutions. We are an incredibly resourceful nation, always have been. And I hope we continue to be so. 

You are so right Clive. My daughter has just had a request through her 3D printing community to start printing parts for use in hospitals. She is not sure what some of the bits are but one is a valve of some sort and another is a simple device to open doors without touching the handle. All 3 of her printers are working flat out, all FOC naturally.

[zetecspit]

53 minutes ago, GT6Steve said:

Has anyone heard of avoiding various pain pills during this period?  A UK friend has said they've had to stop their Naproxen for the duration?  I've seen no such advice here in the USA.  BTW, Las Vegas is expected to reach 27C this weekend so maybe nature will give us short term relief?

Seen some stuff about Ibuprofen, a NSAID. Think they were investigating the evidence, and that in general anti-inflammatory medication can reduce the immune response. But nothing definite! 

[Nick Jones]

 

1 hour ago, GT6Steve said:

Has anyone heard of avoiding various pain pills during this period?  A UK friend has said they've had to stop their Naproxen for the duration?  I've seen no such advice here in the USA.  BTW, Las Vegas is expected to reach 27C this weekend so maybe nature will give us short term relief?

IIRC Peter C mentioned ibroprofen earlier in this thread - something about it opening a pathway that might be used by the virus (a pathway that vit D3 tends to close?) so potentially increasing the risk/severity of infection.  Don't remember whether there was link to go with it......

Whether other NSAIDs do the same thing, I don't know.  I could ask the household pharmacist, but will likely get "you what - where did you get that from?" type response.....

This in the BMJ (should be a fairly reputable source)

https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1086

UK GOV on the fence..... but advising erring on the side of caution - not unreasonably.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ibuprofen-use-and-covid19coronavirus

Podcast from the evil Guardian (seems quite measured and balanced to me)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2020/mar/26/covid-19-can-ibuprofen-make-an-infection-worse

And the Telegraph agrees too.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/ibuprofen-coronavirus-symptoms-which-painkillers-should-take-anti-inflammatory/

In Europe the advice on balance is to stick to paracetemol where possible.  Where this leaves people already taking NSAIDs for other reasons isn't clear.