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GT6MK3

Closing the "Cradle of Democracy"

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What on earth have we all done in this life, or did we all do in previous lives, to deserve the current bunch of self serving non-entities in Parliament?

There isn't a statesman like leader amongst them that could negotiate with the EU or create a vision of the future for this country. I know we elected them, but clearly they are not fit for purpose. At the next election I imagine we'll be faced with the same choices of poor candidates to choose from, what a sad situation.

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On 8/29/2019 at 12:41 PM, JohnD said:

Roger,

I suspect we are much of an age, so you will remember travel before Schengen.   Freedom to roam Europe is one that the young will lose, not be given.

I'm no economist, but if the German banks must charge investors a fee for holding their money, doesn't that show a socety replete with cash and investment?     Why is that bad?   Again, you can probably remember inflation in the UK at 10 or even 20%, with interets rates to match, which really impoverishes people, and ruins business.

It's a poor analogy, but we know a Club that a lot of members fled a little while ago, to 'migrate' here.   I don't know how many now go back there, and enjoy the benefits of both, but I hope they will wish to improve the situation at either end, not sit in one camp and throw stones.

JOhn

Can anyone explain what the problems I never faced traveling to and around Europe before Schengen were?

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On 9/5/2019 at 6:44 AM, Nick Jones said:

Indeed. Career politicians and their SELF-interest above all else.

How we arrived in this mess and why we cannot escape.......

We will escape on October 31 2019.

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Hi

Just to let you know, just back from ten days in France myself and two others guys had to remove immigrants from motorhomes broken into   parked to join the ferry in Portsmouth the Gendarmerie just escorted them back to the gate with a laugh they did not give a toss. You decide.    

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5 hours ago, Neil T said:

Hi

Just to let you know, just back from ten days in France myself and two others guys had to remove immigrants from motorhomes broken into   parked to join the ferry in Portsmouth the Gendarmerie just escorted them back to the gate with a laugh they did not give a toss. You decide.    

Not really anything to do with Brexit. Was happening before. Will continue to happen after. If there ever is an after :pinch:

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On 9/9/2019 at 9:57 PM, Nick Jones said:

Not really anything to do with Brexit. Was happening before. Will continue to happen after. If there ever is an after :pinch:

Unfortunately, this is very true, it's been going on for years.

Right now, we don't even have the political will to do anything about it. 

I have no problem with anyone, of any creed, colour or religion, coming into the UK, via the front door.

I do object to those who try to get here, document free, via any other route. 

Yes, I know that many are escaping war etc etc, but, have you noticed that a huge number of these people are young single men.

Where are their families?

If it is so bad that they feel the need to leave, why not think; family first.

 

We sould always try to help those who often cannot defend themselves; women and children, but, young, fit, single men?

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John

As an irregular visitor to the UK, I can only agree with you.  And this is one of Brexit's continuing mysteries to me.

When I discuss immigration with people in the Old Country, there is a grudging acknowledgement that people from the EU Accession Countries are 'alright' and, barring the increased burden on public services and certain tabloid-attracting criminal elements, their anger is more fully directed at the demographic you have highlighted.  With neither the UK nor Ireland being part of Schengen, it seems that the level of control at the UK's ports will not change.  Refugees - legitimate and otherwise - from beyond the EU's borders will be no less likely to gain entry to the UK after Brexit than they are at the moment.

Brexit just looks like a blinding deflection to much more serious risks from near neighbours and bigger ones further afield, rather than the answer to it.  The UK is going out of its way to make enemies of the very people it needs to be its friends right now.

Paul

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Sorry but you need to know, this was a gang of about 12 all on mobile phones and walkie talkies add to that all wearing designer clothes and shoes. I repeat the police wanted them out of there way and did not give a toss.So you get the heavy fine when home,go figure.  

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1 hour ago, Neil T said:

Sorry but you need to know, this was a gang of about 12 all on mobile phones and walkie talkies add to that all wearing designer clothes and shoes. I repeat the police wanted them out of there way and did not give a toss.So you get the heavy fine when home,go figure.  

Neil

I am confident that many of these 'refugees', escaping the terror of war / famine / pestilence etc, are in fact comfortably off and just looking to make a fast buck at our expense.

How much of our benifits cash leaves the UK?

As a %, not a lot I guess, but, I bet it's still in multiple millions, money which we could use here in our cash strapped social and medical services sectors

 

John

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On 9/14/2019 at 2:40 AM, Janner said:

Neil

I am confident that many of these 'refugees', escaping the terror of war / famine / pestilence etc, are in fact comfortably off and just looking to make a fast buck at our expense.

How much of our benifits cash leaves the UK?

As a %, not a lot I guess, but, I bet it's still in multiple millions, money which we could use here in our cash strapped social and medical services sectors

 

John

Your evidence to back this up?

Oh, hang on, “You’re confident.” 

That covers it then.

 

(doesn’t really cover why the heart of your democracy has been summarily closed out from discussion though.)

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9 hours ago, GT6MK3 said:

Your evidence to back this up?

Oh, hang on, “You’re confident.” 

That covers it then.

 

(doesn’t really cover why the heart of your democracy has been summarily closed out from discussion though.)

Well:

If I'm wrong about the single young men trying to enter the UK illegally, I'm very happy to see the evidence

If I'm wrong about the benefits money going abroad, I'm very happy to see the evidence

You are correct, like you, I have opinions

What I don't have is hours to spend trawling the internet, looking for links to back up my thoughts and opinions

The heart of my democracy has been closed for 4 days . . . .hey ho.

I'm sure our well paid, hard working, honest, upright politicians from all corners of the colour spectrum, will find useful and constructive things to do during that time.

And I'll post my name

John

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While you may very well be right about the demographic trying to "break in", I repeat that this is not specifically an EU/Brexit related problem.  It is a problem of the UK being seen as a tempting target for a number of reasons:

- Extensive colonial links from the past, the ghost of the empire coming back to haunt.  Many have relatives (often rather distant) here to provide a foothold.
- English language
- Historically seen as a soft touch due to benefits system (Set by UK governments NOT EU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
- Prosperous
- No ID cards (unique in Europe)

Under EU law, those seeking asylum are supposed to claim it at the first EU border they reach.  Typically a long way from the channel.  However, once in they can get across the open land borders no problem and pitch up at the ports.  Previously the French (on whom the main burden has fallen) have tried reasonably hard to deal with what is a really persistent and difficult problem, but with all the Brexit bollocks, they really can't be bothered any more - and who can blame them.  Likewise, those who get "caught" in say Italy or Spain, when they first enter the EU are probably being allowed to go on their way if they say they are going to the UK.  There was always the suspicion this happened in the past but for damn sure it does since this Brexit crap kicked off.  Without a doubt Brexit has made matters worse, not better.

As regards benefits money being "sent home".  This is probably mostly a myth put out by lying bastard journalists (Al de Piffle included) trying to sell their propaganda rags.  Even if true to some extent, it is function of the system put in place by successive UK governments (of either stripe) and not dictated by the EU, whatever the aforementioned propaganda rags might have you believe.

So if you are trying to use either of the above to justify voting for Brexit - you are just plain wrong.

BTW, if anyone still thinks that the total horror that is the current Tory party is worthy of your vote, you may just get the government you deserve.  Pity the rest of us though, who must try our hardest to stop it happening.

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4 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

While you may very well be right about the demographic trying to "break in", I repeat that this is not specifically an EU/Brexit related problem. 

Nick

Agreed, you'll see no arguement from me following your statement

Whilst I can't be bothered to find a link to back me up, I would suggest it has been a problem, for us in the UK, for the last 15 or so years or so.

4 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

It is a problem of the UK being seen as a tempting target for a number of reasons:

- Extensive colonial links from the past, the ghost of the empire coming back to haunt.  Many have relatives (often rather distant) here to provide a foothold.
- English language
- Historically seen as a soft touch due to benefits system (Set by UK governments NOT EU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
- Prosperous
- No ID cards (unique in Europe)

Again, pretty close to the mark, however, Afghanistan was administered by the UK and gained independence from this in about 1920?

Iran, I believe, was never administered by or a colony of, the UK

The ability of non UK children, to make themselves understood in English, continue to show up our poor grasp of languages

Soft touch? Without a doubt, but, again, identified as an issue 15 or more years ago

The whole of Europe and Scandinavian is prosperous, the North, probably more than the South,  but then, the cold of Scandinavia will put off many, although Sweden has seen a lot of immigration.  The cleanliness and prosperity are big factors here is my guess.

Yes ID cards is a big issue, given the way things have gone, I think they would be a good idea.

4 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Under EU law, those seeking asylum are supposed to claim it at the first EU border they reach.  Typically a long way from the channel.  However, once in they can get across the open land borders no problem and pitch up at the ports.  Previously the French (on whom the main burden has fallen) have tried reasonably hard to deal with what is a really persistent and difficult problem, but with all the Brexit bollocks, they really can't be bothered any more - and who can blame them.  Likewise, those who get "caught" in say Italy or Spain, when they first enter the EU are probably being allowed to go on their way if they say they are going to the UK.  There was always the suspicion this happened in the past but for damn sure it does since this Brexit crap kicked off.  Without a doubt Brexit has made matters worse, not better.

Be fair, the Frence were putting small numbers of illegal immigrants onto the channel tunnel train 20 years ago, just to get rid of them.

Following political pressure from not just the UK, they did grasp the nettle and try to regain control.

Not sure they have succeeded yet though. 

The '1st border' rule is being ignored, especially by the Mediterranean Eu countries.

They are overwhelmed and under financed.  By just leaving the illegals on the streets, they allow them the wander the Shengen area.

Not good for anyone, least of the the people out on the streets in all weathers.

The UK is seen as the golden prize, with free money and free accommodation; aboslutely right for the vulnerable refugees, babies, children, parents, grandparents, but, lone, 20 or 30 something males, with no papers? 

 

John

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1 hour ago, Janner said:

 

The UK is seen as the golden prize.

The booby prize, you need to travel more that way your know when your in a shit country.

RR.

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2 hours ago, Janner said:

Be fair, the Frence were putting small numbers of illegal immigrants onto the channel tunnel train 20 years ago, just to get rid of them.

According to.......?  The Daily Wail?  The Sun?  

29 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

The booby prize, you need to travel more that way your know when your in a shit country.

I have just been travelling in Europe....... and I'm inclined to agree.  Except for Turin.  Didn't like Turin much.

And on our return last Friday driving up the M20 from Dover, signs hung from motorway bridges by disgruntled locals "Welcome to Kent" England's lorry park"

IMG_3668s.jpg

Their beef.....  "Project Brock"  15 miles x 2 lanes of the northbound M20 closed for the foreseeable future in case it's needed as a lorry park due to a no deal brexit....... that such a desperate measure should be deemed necessary (it's probably not nearly enough in reality should the shit hit the fan) for a wholly artificial crisis manufactured for the entertainment and "benefit" of the political classes surely serves to illustrate the incredible levels of stupidity and ignorance......

5.5 hours to do the 200 miles from Dover to home.  Average speed of under 37mph and that's on a route that is 95% M-way / dual carriageway.  Pitiful.

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10 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

According to.......?  The Daily Wail?  The Sun?  

If my memory is correct, it was on the beeb Nick

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Hi Nick,

 

Have to agree.

 

We had the same issue coming back on the ferry from the 10CR a couple of weeks ago. Took about the same time for me to get home. It was an absolute joke.  I am all for complying with speed limits where road works are concerned, but not necessarily so when there is no work force in operation.....

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Just how desperate is this Tory MisGovernment, flailing around trying to give the impression that they are doing something, while intentionally doing nothing?    I was on the M1 near York yesterday.  The gantry signs bore the following message:

"Freight to EU.    Papers may change Nov 1.   Please check."

Since neither they nor the EU know what is going to happen, except that nothing is happening.  They are just running the clock down, so that the UK whimpers out of Europe on the 31st October.    This was obviously Alexander de Pfeffle Sulk's plan all along.    

Come the inevitable Gen.Election, unless his political coup turns into a real  one - you do know that the Yellowhammer papers include military takeover of distribution, policing and local authorities? - I can only break the habit of a lifetime and vote LibDem.    A hopeless case, but at least an honest one.

I agree with Brenda.   "All of them, Ma'am?"  " Yes, Bond, the whole bloody lot! "

John

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Brussels' unelected Commissioners will be laughing at UK government's inability to ensure parliament respects the referendum result. Brussels is running rings around us and that will continue into the future unless our PM devises a new strategy behind the scenes, takking executive actions that parliament does not control. For instance, Boris could work to find one of the EU 27 to reject an extension of Art50, a decision that has to have unanimous support in EU Parl. Dobtless pro-brexit MEPs will be working on this now.

The UK SupCt may have limited a PMs power in favour of preserving internal UK democracy, but it has woefullly clipped the PMs wings when it comes to negotiaitng with an undemcratic institution , the EU and the Franco-German axis.

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