Front Felt Seal Conundrum

[oldtuckunder]

first excuse all lower case, but have a problem operating caps and shift key!

ok this is on the red spit which is a bit of a bitza, but basically has vitesse/gt6 uprights, stub axles and hubs, with early herald calliper mounting brackets to take princess or m16 calipers.

just got the hubs off and appear to have two types of felt seal arrangement, and the manuals and parts lists aren't helping.

first two pics below are the rh, where I appear to have a felt seal on the stub axle against the mounting plate, and what looks like a rubber seal in the hub.

the second two pics show the lh, where it appears there is a felt seal bonded to a metal outer that is pressed into the hub.

not 100% sure the felt is bonded but it doesn't want to come out easily, and if you look you can see that the surface of the hub is highly polished which looks like the felt seal has been rotating on it, which does indicate to me that the felt is stuck to the pressed in metal carrier, whereas on the rh side the felt has stayed put on the axle against the mounting bracket doesn't have a steel carrier and it looks like the rubber seal in the hub rotates on it?

if i look in my vitesse/gt6 manual it says after removing hub assembly avoiding damage to felt seal drift out the seal holder 45 which from the picture appears to be the metal cup pressed into the hub on the lh side. however if I look at the rimmer parts lists for both vitesse and gt6 neither show a felt washer or the metal seal holder 45 but both show ghs146 a rubber/plastic seal, which probably looks like what i can see in the rh hub. If I look in the spitfire diagrams/parts list they also show no felt washer but the same ghs146 rubber/plastic seal. however if i look in the Herald diagrams/parts list low and behold i find ghs110 felt in steel retaining and zero use of ghs146.

so i'm guessing that the vitesse/gt6 workshop manual is wrong about drifting 45 seal holder and that is a bit that got carried forward from the earlier herald manual it was based on. however my conundrum if i have ghs146 fitted on the rh side it shouldn't also need an extra felt seal (not in retainer) as I have got, but on the lh side where i have ghs110 fitted is it really correct that that felt seal goes wizzing around fixed in the hub rubbing against the mounting bracket face?  i'd like to have the two the same, but which is correct, or do they both work equally well.

alan

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by oldtuckunder
early enter

[PaulAA]

Is there a terrible connection between the thread title and your opening statement, Alan?  Used the wrong glue and your caps lock finger is now permanently part of the front felt seal?

Paul

[oldtuckunder]

rather the reverse at the moment it feels like the felt seal is attached to my caps shift finger.

has just occurred to me that on the technical aspect of the thread i wonder if someone found that using gt6 hubs with the herald back plates required both the pressed rubber seal and a felt washer?

alan

[Nick Jones]

The correct arrangement is a reasonably thick L-section steel ring with a felt ring glued into it.  This then taps into the back of the hub and runs against the face of the VL.  Crude, but sort of works.  Your second pic shows one of the original rings less felt.

The problem is that the OE style parts are long gone and what gets supplied instead has a metal backing ring, which is oversize and made of too-thin material so it usually just mangles when you try to tap it in (possibly what you can see in pic 3?).  Also the felt is way to thick and buggers up your bearing setting process.

My normal solution is to use original backing rings and original felts if available.  If no original felts, remove from one of the crappy new ones and trim it down.  You want approx. 2/3 their thickness typically.  You can glue that to the ring if you want but I don't bother.  Just stick in with grease to install - it can't go anywhere.....

[Nick Jones]

2 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said:

using gt6 hubs with the herald back plates required both the pressed rubber seal and a felt washer?

Heralds use felt too.  Rubber seals is a big saloon thing - oddly enough - same bearings.  They don't work any better.

[oldtuckunder]

thanks nick, ok looks like the rh has ghs146 fitted and the felt is loose and left on the axle and the lh has ghs110 fitted and as you guessed the case has been a bit mangled tapping it in. what confused me looking at the parts lists was that in the on-line pictures ghs146 looked like rubber/plastic not steel/felt. guess the best solution is a new pair of ghs146 with the felt trimmed to fit. glad you raised the issue of the felt thickness as i had been looking at them and thinking if i tighten the nut to pull the hub on and it comes up against the felt and then the felt compresses the bearings go loose, but then said to myself don't be silly there have been 10's of thousands in use it can't be as silly a design as that can it?

[oldtuckunder]

6 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Also the felt is way to thick and buggers up your bearing setting process.

ok bit of interesting reading in the factory manual on this, i actually got it out to see how much grease you should use in the hub bearings as every time I have taken an old hub off i always seem to scrape out about the equivalent of half a tin of grease which when you look at it hasn't done anything in 20-40 years. turns out just grease the new bearings liberally and none! in the hub.

however back to my opening line about the felt and bearing setting, according to the factory the bearings should be fitted dry and the felt seal left off, the hub should be fitted to the axle and the nut tightened to give  .003-.005 end float, then mark the nut position, then remove hub, then grease the bearings, then fit the seal housing, then soak the felt in oil so it goes squishy, then re-fit the hub and tighten the nut to the previous established position and the back just enough to fit the split pin. so it looks like the factory at least made a good attempt to get the bearing tolerance correct taking into account the compressibility of the felt etc.

alan   

[Nick Jones]

+1 on the grease.  EVERY hub I ever worked on has been stuffed with it.  You get nearly a full handful when scraped out....... why?  All it does is melt when you get the brakes really hot and come weeing out onto the brakes....... so they won't get hot any more....... or stop you. 

[Melmac]

Please tell me why I can’t just fit the felt seal on the vertical link first and then the inner bearing on the axle and at last the hub and the outer bearing.